20. The Making of a Bad Therapist
Season 1, Episode 20
The hot seats are flipped when Allie and Kathryn are interviewed by Brighter Vision's Jocelyn Van Saun. They share the nitty-gritty details behind creating Am I a Bad Therapist, including their complimentary skill sets, unforeseen challenges and relatable fears.
You can find out more about our podcast, full transcripts, and apply to be a guest on our website!
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https://www.brightervision.com/podcast/bad-therapist-podcast/
https://www.brightervision.com/
Connect with Kathryn:
https://www.instagram.com/teletherapist.network/
Connect with Allie:
https://www.etsy.com/shop/TheJoyofTherapy
https://www.instagram.com/thejoyoftherapy/
Episode Transcript - The Making of a Bad Therapist
Allie Joy 00:07
So for all of our listeners, we have been doing some different things lately, but we want to just bring you different conversations and different things that come up for us. So today the episode that we're sharing is actually a podcast that we we recorded with brighter vision. And we had so much fun recording it and sharing different parts of our story that we really thought our own listeners would hopefully enjoy it too.
Kathryn Esquer 02:26
Yeah, we get to talk about the behind the scenes how we created the podcast, why we created the podcast, our insecurities around the podcast. We cover a lot of our inner work as we've been developing this and maybe even a few dream interpretations. So hopefully you can join us. And just a friendly reminder that this episode is for entertainment purposes only it is not a substitute for clinical consultation, ethical guidance or therapy in and of itself.
Allie Joy 02:57
All right, well, this is a different episode of am I a bad therapist, but this is episode number 20. So let's get into it.
Jocelyn Van Saun 03:08
Well, hello and welcome everyone to our 2022 Fall into cash podcast mini series. Today I'm joined by Kathryn Esquer, founder of the tele therapist, network and Allie Joy, owner of her own private practice and the creative clinical consultation and supervision. So together, this duo has created the incredibly relatable podcast Am I a Bad Therapist to shine light on the difficult decisions therapists face on a daily basis and normalize the gray areas of clinical practice. We'll be discussing why they're embracing bad therapists moments and the most common clinical mistakes and the importance of talking about mistakes in the therapy room. So before getting into it, I'll just start with a couple quick introductions. Starting with myself. My name is Jocelyn Van Saun. And I'm on the marketing team here at brighter vision. And for those of you who aren't familiar with brighter vision, we're an all in one marketing solution for therapists and our goal is to make marketing your private practice as simple as possible. So we offer custom therapist as well as blogging and social media automation through social Genie, which is our platform that's designed and prefilled with written content, specifically on mental health and wellness topics, but more importantly our guests as I mentioned today, we're joined by Kathryn Esquer and Allie Joy co-hosts of the podcast Am I a Bad therapist. Kathryn is also a licensed psychologist with an MBA. After a decade of living and working in city she returned to her rural hometown to provide outpatient mental health services services to the underserved community and she is the founder of the teletherapist network which is an exclusive community of modern therapists to improve clinical skills and decrease burnout in clinical practice. Allie is a licensed professional counselor and registered Art Therapist based in Connecticut. She owns her own private practice as well as the creative clinical consultation and supervision which helps other therapists incorporate creativity into their own work in a fun and ethical way. So again, welcome, Allie and Kathryn, thank you for joining us today. I guess we'll get started if you want to add to any of those intros, and just tell me how you started your podcast and even before that, how the two of you met and got connected.
Kathryn Esquer 05:21
Thank you. You did a wonderful job summarizing everything. Thank you, Jocelyn. Yeah, so I'm Kathryn. And go ahead, Allie. Want to share your voice?
Allie Joy 05:32
Yes. And I'm Allie. Thank you for having us today.
Kathryn Esquer 05:36
And we oh, gosh, that's a great question. How did we meet Allie? I think our first interaction was on Instagram, right?
Allie Joy 05:43
Yeah, it was. So I was you know, just looking at expanding like my supervision and masterclasses and things like that. And I found Kathryn on the teletherapist network, and I just reached out was like, hey, what you're doing is really awesome. I love the idea of the network. And we ended up having I joined the network, and I hosted a masterclass at first. And then we just really connected and just chatted a lot from there. I host a consultation group there. And then just through chatting, I was like, actually, it's funny. I had a dream that Kathryn and I started a podcast, and I messaged her and was like, I had a dream that we started a podcast. Do you want to do it? And here we are.
Kathryn Esquer 06:25
It really was a, you won't believe this. I hope this isn't too creepy. But I had a dream about you last night. Me being so totally open to all these new experiences and just like blooming where I'm planted, I'm like, sure that sounds great. And we we actually the podcast creation, as much as we want it to seem like it was just this great idea from the beginning. We spent several months planning it hashing out ideas, coming up with topics, refining topics, talking about marketing, so we really spent a good what would you say are like three months?
Allie Joy 07:08
Yes, I think about three months.
Kathryn Esquer 07:11
The beginning of this year, so the beginning of 2022, three months, just laying the groundwork for a really successful podcast. So we had everything built, all the systems built. I mean, granted, we tweak them all the time, but all the systems marketing platforms, audio, visual, everything built that when we first launched, we could hit the ground running and really scale. So I was really grateful that Allie had that dream and that we're so well, we're great. We're great co hosts together and producers together because we work very similarly and really have this high quality of excellence in mind when we think about how we want to deliver our podcasts.
Jocelyn Van Saun 07:47
Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome.
Allie Joy 07:50
Oh, sorry. Oh, I was just gonna say I'm glad Kathryn didn't think it was creepy messaging her like.
07:57
She's like, No, this is great. I love this. Let's go. That's awesome. So it was relatively new to both of you. So what were kind of your your biggest fears and concerns when deciding to produce and launch a podcast of your own?
Kathryn Esquer 08:13
That's a great question. I think, Allie, I'll let you speak for yourself as well. But I am I'm very timid to show up publicly. I'm just a very private person in general. And with founding and growing the teletherapist network, I really had to stretch that visibility muscle and get more comfortable in the public spotlight. So I think the biggest hurdle for me and the biggest fear with me was putting myself out there even more in an even more vulnerable spot talking about my missteps, my mistakes, and my insecurities in the therapy room as a psychologist. That was the scariest part for me, like, Is this making me vulnerable to something? Am I going to be perceived as weak or less than as a therapist for talking about that? That was my biggest hurdle. When we were when we were hashing out the details of the podcast. How about you, Allie?
Allie Joy 09:08
Yeah, I felt very similar. Because as we were developing our idea, I feel like we kind of always circled around something along the lines of like, talking about the hard parts of being a therapist or the isolation and we ended up with, you know, the bad therapist concept. And I remember we sat with it for a while, because we were like, how is this going to be perceived? We know there are going to be people who might not read you know, the description after the name and might just think that we're calling people bad, when we're saying the opposite. We're trying to normalize that we make mistakes. But I was like, Yeah, are we going to get some backlash for this? Like, where it's not going to be understood? And then will that make me look like a bad therapist? Would my clients maybe see this and think like, oh my gosh, my therapist has a podcast called am I bad therapist. So I was a little bit nervous about I'll, I guess just again, how it'd be perceived. But I believe in our message so much, and I'm glad to be pushed through with it. Because we really have gotten incredible feedback from listeners and people online, you know, who are understanding our vision and like, you know, our mission and what we do. And I appreciate it. So I'm glad to be pushed through that discomfort.
Kathryn Esquer 10:20
Yeah, it was scary. Finally, settling, settle settling on Am I a bad therapist? That was that was a big deal to us.
Jocelyn Van Saun 10:28
Yeah, were you guys kind of playing with a bunch of different ideas, and then thought, you know, like, this is a niche that hasn't really been filled in the space and that we could really reach a lot of people with how'd that go?
Allie Joy 10:40
Yeah, well, we talked a lot about in developing our ideas, how so many, like therapy related podcasts are trying to teach you something, right, like how to build your practice how to develop your skills, like, there's so much of that out there, which is valuable. But I can speak for myself, like, I have a lot on my plate, I'm tired, like I, you know, with, for my one to one work with clients, it can be really draining. So we didn't want to create a podcast that just gave someone another task. And that was kind of like something we said early on. And then I think we also together realize that nobody's really talking about the mistakes that we make. Because what we do is so private, you know, we're just working with clients with regarding to confidentiality, and HIPAA, and then also how we're perceived as therapists. So once we kind of thought, like, no one's talking about the mistakes, there's a lot of shame around making mistakes, or around sharing it. And then again, the idea of like, we didn't want to add to someone's to do list. So that's kind of how we found that idea. Felt like it was a very, like, much needed conversation to happen.
Jocelyn Van Saun 11:43
Yeah.
Kathryn Esquer 11:45
Ideally, I think it's all about bringing the mistakes, bringing our mistakes out of isolation, we make them in an isolated therapy room, right, which is protected by confidentiality. And so we want to be able to normalize them and bring them out and make them less shameful. Like Allie said, you put that beautifully and our process, we really kind of led with developing the podcast, what do we want our listeners to feel? How do we want them to feel when they walk away from our podcast, we want them to feel overwhelmed, or less than or taking, having 10,000 things to do, or really great actionable steps that they're never gonna get around to doing? Or do we want them we really landed on we want to make them feel connected, supported, normalized. And humanize the practice of therapy.
Jocelyn Van Saun 12:31
Love that. Yeah. And so for other other therapists who are kind of considering doing something similar, but do have their own business, like both of you do, how do you kind of juggle doing something like this, as well as managing multiple businesses?
Kathryn Esquer 12:47
It's so your question is so timely, because Allie and I were just talking about how we manage multiple businesses, and not only manage multiple businesses, but manage multiple roles, Allie and I both have partners, I have two children. We have lives outside of our businesses. And so it's a lot to juggle and I think, number one, I think Allie, you know, what I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say systems systems are. My that is what I brought to the table when we were co creating this podcast. Allie has the artistic vision, and I did the back end systems to make it run beautifully and smoothly and almost see, I wouldn't say seamlessly, but almost without us having to do a lot of the minute tasks over and over again. So my, my creative outlet is building systems and Allie's was developing, I guess, the whole show other than that.
Allie Joy 13:41
No, it's perfect. I think we do, like support each other so well, but that because that's like Kathryn said, my brain is very creative, you know, as an art therapist, as a creative person. So I don't like this, like, the little details or the system. So it does balance out so well, where I could think about, like, you know, our logo that was so fun developing that together, like our marketing angle, like our graphics, so I felt like it balances out perfectly. And for myself, I have shared this before, like, my brain works best, like multiple things going on. Like if I do the same thing over and over again, I get kind of like restless almost. So having different businesses for me and having the podcast fills me up more so than anything. So that's just what I have found works best for myself in my work is that I need some variety. And when we were kind of, you know, talking about this idea and how much time we could commit, I was like, I this idea makes me excited. It makes me feel like connected. I love talking to providers because we always interview providers, and hearing people's stories it so I kind of weighed that of like It's so fulfilling for me, and it gets me so excited that it's worth the time and just balancing out the other work that I do.
Jocelyn Van Saun 16:08
So in doing this, getting to the content, the topic of your podcasts, what are some of the most kind of common bad therapists mistakes or qualms that you've heard so far?
Kathryn Esquer 16:20
We've heard a lot of them. I would say the most common is not something that gets talked about the most. But that is, I think, when there's a rupture in the therapeutic alliance, or the therapeutic relationship, and I'm talking now about big ones that we need to address, or that it's quite obvious, we need to address but small ones, where perhaps a client, you know, we say something meaning one way and it's interpreted a different way. And we really take that shame and that imposter syndrome of I just goofed with us into the rest of our day or take us into a night. So I think the most common ones are the really small ones that are just honest mistakes that we make, or honest miscommunications that happen, that we they're so small that we don't we don't address them, or we don't really acknowledge them as like, Hey, it's okay. It's okay to make that. And it's okay to acknowledge that you're having big feelings about something so small? Sure. Like, what do you think?
Allie Joy 17:20
Yeah, I think that and I do think a common thread through, I think all of our episodes, honestly, is like you said, Kathryn, that imposter syndrome, whatever the experience was, or the mistake was, I think almost all of our guests have said it, like, it led them to that question of like, am I a bad therapist for making this mistake? Am I doing the right thing? Did I make the right choice? So I do feel like that is kind of a common thread that goes through it. And again, the hope in us talking about these things is like, No, you are a human, we all make mistakes. And it's scary to share it. And I give our guests so much credit for coming on and talking about their mistakes, because it's really vulnerable. But we have, again, we get such great feedback where people say, I heard this and I have been through something similar. It made me feel less alone, it made me feel so much better. And it makes me feel better, because I relate to the stories too. And we always keep sharing our bad therapists stories, I have tons of them to share. So it just I think is again, it's really like common thread to talk about feeling like that imposter syndrome. But I'm hoping, you know, as we continue that people feel less alone and less like that imposter.
Jocelyn Van Saun 18:24
Yeah, totally. And it's not, like you said, it's not doesn't make you a bad therapist. It's just bad therapists moments. And that's really the, the meaning behind the podcasts, which I love. So you've touched on why you need to talk about this and why it's important to kind of get those little moments out in the open to make everyone feel less alone. But what do you envision would happen if we didn't talk about those moments?
Kathryn Esquer 18:52
I think that was such a such a trend. You know, I would say during the pandemic, but also before the pandemic, where we all there was this big sense of isolation, where we practiced by ourselves in a room with our clients or on a screen with our clients. And we didn't necessarily have the community and the support to be able to talk through what we experienced or how we experienced it or what was going on in therapy or get that outside perspective. So I can't really pinpoint exactly what would happen. But. And so if we don't talk about our experiences as therapists who where are we getting that quality control? How are we knowing where's our true north and how are we knowing our barometer is going that direction? There's there's no checks and balances. So consultation there's a reason consultation and talking about our bad therapists moments. As a part of consultation are a part of all of our ethics codes, all of them out there, if you're licensed it is in your ethics codes, check it out. Because it's really the only way to make sure we're delivering quality work.
Allie Joy 20:14
Yeah. And I think to like, this might be more like dramatic of an answer. But I do think it could honestly lead to someone leaving the profession, if they, you know, have made a few mistakes. And we've had guests and I've shared like, and I know Katy, you've shared like, in our internship, if something happens, or right out of practice, a big mistake happens. And if you don't talk about it, if you don't normalize it, if you don't get that support, or if you just don't get someone saying, like, I have experienced that, too, it might lead to someone leaving or not feeling like they belong in the profession and things like that. So I think the more we spread that message of mistakes happen, we are humans, it's okay to talk about them and learn from them. Hopefully, it keeps people here keeps people happy in the work that they're doing. And not being so hard on themselves. So I think that comes up too. And some of our conversations of people saying, like, I felt like the worst therapist, like I thought this, you know, maybe I was gonna lose my license, or you know, we have that strong reaction. And then you feel alone in that, and then you're hard on yourself, and that might carry into your week, your month, you know, a lot of these stories people share like even years later, and that emotion is still so strong, because of how it felt. So hopefully, the more we do talk about it, the less of that weight on our shoulders, it feels like the less intense it seems, hopefully would help with our burnout and things like that, too. Yeah.
Kathryn Esquer 21:35
The more we talk about it, the more this just kind of solidified if we don't talk about it, we become more isolated. And when we become more isolated, we, you know, our quality of clinical work can suffer as well as our quality of life can suffer. So I think that kind of encapsulates what happens if we don't talk about our bad therapists moments. Yeah.
Jocelyn Van Saun 21:56
Yeah. So what would you recommend to therapists, when they do have these moments? Kind of going off of that? Who should they talk to? And kind of how should they they seek that expertise?
Allie Joy 22:06
Well, I would say, of course, they should come on the podcast, of course. But before that, of course, you know, talking, building out your network, definitely supervision and consultation, even for people who are licensed and seasoned. Like it's still so important to have consultation and supervision. I mean, ideally, consistently, but especially if something comes up or talking to your colleagues and things. And just again, maybe telling the story later on, too. What about you, Kathryn, what would you say?
Kathryn Esquer 22:39
Oh, yeah, I am a pretty social person by nature. And so when it comes to insecurities at work, or in business, I absolutely have a trusted group of peers that I lean on. And that know me that know my work, and can really give me that supportive feedback that I'm looking for. And sometimes it's hard to hear, but I know that they know me, and I trust their trust their perspectives, obviously, I have to qualify it right, you have to qualify the the advice giver, but absolutely leaning on that those that peer network is critical. And I think in our society, it's becoming harder and harder to develop that peer network as we go through life. And so putting the time and energy into developing your network before you need that. And emergency support, per se, is is a really good investment into your quality of life and your clinical work.
Jocelyn Van Saun 23:34
Awesome. And yeah, like we've talked about you two have both been through it and are going through it every day as as providers, so you are uniquely qualified to have these discussions. So with that, what are some of your biggest bad therapists moments that you've had yourself?
Kathryn Esquer 23:53
Oh, Gosh.
Allie Joy 23:54
Well, I don't know if we should share once we've already shared on the podcast or if we should share some new ones. What do you think Kathryn?
Kathryn Esquer 23:59
We can share general theme? Yeah, I for those of you who listened to the podcast, or know me from the teletherapist network, you know that I live and work in my rural hometown where I grew up. And so my bad therapists moments can be encapsulated by one phrase, and that is dual relationships, period. There's just so many of them that I encounter on a daily, probably, I wouldn't say daily, weekly basis, that so many different ethical conversations and dilemmas come up through these dual relationships which are extremely hard to navigate in a small town when you live and work there grew up there or if you are in an urban area, perhaps you work with a very select population, which you are also a member of or community in which you are a member of. And so that can also have those dual relationships pop up, but those are those that encapsulates mine. How about you, Allie?
Allie Joy 24:51
Yeah, I know. I'm trying to think I think a lot of mine come from maybe my excitement like making get quick decisions in the therapy room, and not always thinking them through all the ways. So one of the ones I shared recently on the podcast was as an art therapist, I get really into the projects that I do with my clients, but sometimes I don't really think about the mess. So sometimes it makes a big mess. Or sometimes I end up covered in paint and my clients covered in paint, and then I'm like, oh, yeah, you have to go function in the world after this. So I think sometimes, those quick decisions we make, you know, in hindsight, we could have maybe made a little bit differently. But they're still worth it, we just have to work through it. And then sometimes I think with the like, when I was getting licensed, it was I made some mistakes there of like, when I was getting ready for my exams or keeping track of paperwork. So like we shared earlier, I'm not always great at the detail work. I like the big picture thinking. So I have made some bet therapist moments in those little details as well.
Jocelyn Van Saun 25:59
Awesome. We'd love to hear well. how can listeners get connected with both of you if they're interested in coming on the podcast or just chatting with you?
Kathryn Esquer 26:10
Well, we would love to have any listeners listening right now on the podcast, we do not, we are not exclusionary to any certain type of license or only certain level of practitioner. We have clinicians, therapists, counselors, social workers, psychologists of all experience levels and backgrounds on the show, you don't even have to have a business Instagram page. We have lots of people who work for group practices and just come on to share their experiences to spread to pay it forward for the for future generations of therapists or new new therapists to learn from their experiences. So you can find us at abadtherapist.com. That is our website. And we have applications there. It's a quick and dirty tell us a little bit about yourself application. Just share your experience on the podcast.
Allie Joy 27:00
Yeah, and we are on Instagram too. It's @abadtherapistpod. We post daily graphics quotes, we love pulling quotes from our episodes and sharing them with our community on Instagram. Again, just like getting those messages across of normalization. We love to do polls and our stories, all sorts of things. So come connect with us on Instagram too. And then I also have an Instagram, it's @thejoyoftherapy where I post a lot about creative interventions and things like that. Just general things relating to therapy, my life, our joy, whatever it is.
Jocelyn Van Saun 27:33
Amazing. And Allie, this is specific to you. But for anyone who knows someone in their network that they'd like to partner with on a project, you say, just reach out and go for it.
Allie Joy 27:44
Yes 100%. Oh, and also make sure that you follow the teletherapist network on Instagram. What is the Kathryn @teletherapist.network?
Kathryn Esquer 27:52
Right and you are so sweet to remember to plug the network I was gonna forget about it. Yeah, if you're not a member of the network yet, check us out. We're on Instagram and then also teletherapistsnetwork.com
Allie Joy 28:05
Yes, but definitely if you want to start a podcast with someone reach out if they say no, okay, that's all right. But it's worth, you know, again, it's exciting. It can be really fun. It's worth the work. It's a good creative outlet. So just just tell them, you want to work with them. Or maybe you'll have a dream about it.
28:24
Amazing. Well, thank you, Katy and Allie so much for joining us today. It was such a fun conversation and such a unique perspective that I think is really helpful for everyone to be reminded of on the daily. So again, thanks for joining us and everyone who's listening check back in on Friday when we'll drop the next segment of our podcast mini series, where we will discuss SEO strategies for therapists with Mark Lebowski from marketing for therapists. So thank you again all for listening. And thank you to Allie and Katy.
Allie Joy 28:55
Thank you for having us.
Kathryn Esquer 28:56
Thank you!