19. Mirror, Mirror on the Wall
Season 1, Episode 19
Have you ever sat across from a client and saw yourself staring back? Samantha shares her experience of intense countertransference and what she learned from the experience.
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Episode Transcript - Mirror, Mirror on the Wall
Allie Joy 00:08
So Kathryn, if you have to estimate, how many times do you think in your career that you have experienced countertransference?
Kathryn Esquer 02:14
Um, I think it's too many to count considering I live and work in the hometown I grew up in. So I see clients who went to my high school who have teachers I've had, and the countertransference is quite abundant.
Allie Joy 02:31
Yes, absolutely. I know. I don't think I could count either. I feel like it happens regularly. But today, it's something that is so common. But we're going to hear from Samantha today. And she's sharing a story about her own experience with countertransference with a particular client pretty, very early on in her career. But her level of insight and reflection was amazing. Like it was so profound, so like relatable, but also so unique at the same time, so we can't wait for everyone to hear it. And she shared she's 24 years old. And I don't know how like she is so like, has so much wonderful self awareness, like wisdom beyond her years.
Kathryn Esquer 03:09
I know I aspire to be her same. So just a friendly reminder that these episodes of am I bad therapists are for entertainment purposes only. They are not a substitute for clinical consultation, ethical guidance or therapy itself.
Allie Joy 03:26
All right, well, this is episode number 19 of Am I a bad therapist? Let's get into it.
Kathryn Esquer 03:35
Well, welcome to the podcast, Samantha.
Samantha Southard 03:39
Hi, everybody. It's a pleasure to be here.
Kathryn Esquer 03:43
So before we get into your bad therapists moment or moments, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Samantha Southard 03:49
So I am Samantha, I am a mental health counselor. I'm based in New York. I have recently graduated within the past year. So this has been you know, an adjustment to being a professional clinician and no longer an intern in practicum and an internship. I've been really trying to find myself as a clinician. So I am based out of a practice in New York called Tree of Life mental health counseling. And we primarily work with children, adolescents, young adults, and then regular adults, we specialize in anxiety, depression, and trauma. My personal areas of expertise tend to be trauma, anxiety, and then self esteem and coping skills because I tend to work with more children and adolescents than my co workers because that's where my experience lies.
Kathryn Esquer 04:46
Awesome. What a great resource for your community. Thank you.
Allie Joy 04:50
Yeah, and it's always so nice having like we as we always say like we welcome all licensure types and experiences. So it's nice to have you here when you're very early on in your career. I'm excited to hear your story. Do you want to dive into it? What made you question If you were a bad therapist?
Samantha Southard 05:07
I think that's a question that a lot of recent graduates ask themselves to begin with, since we're trying to adjust and find our footing and our identity as a clinician once we get out of grad school. So for myself, it's something that, you know, always pops into my mind, here and there. And then of course, imposter syndrome, you know, us feeling like we're not really just good clinicians in general does come up for myself, but I had a particular experience where I not only question it, but it was something that was causing me a lot of anxiety as well. I suffer from anxiety normally. And it's something that I'm very open with, with not only my clients in the world, but also my supervisor as well, because I feel like it's really important for everyone to have the full story and all of the information possible. So what had happened was, I was seeing a client that I had been seeing for a few weeks at this point. So we had had a pretty good connection. And we were able to build rapport very quickly. She's very friendly, very down to earth. And those are always the clients that I feel that you can do a lot of meaningful work with, because they're so ready and willing to engage in therapy. But it was a typical Wednesday, I was doing virtual services. And it was the day that I happened to be remote. So I'm home. In my own setting, I have a dog, I have my dog next to me as I was doing the session. And my client starts to share a lot about the anxiety that she was experiencing. A lot of the anxiety was stemming from insecurities pertaining to her professional life. So really just feeling like, you know, where am I going with my future? You know, how do I support myself financially in the current situation that I'm in, but then also save and, you know, identify what I want for myself for a future financially as well. As I'm sure you both know, and a lot of listeners will probably know as well, when we experience anxiety, I call it like going down the rabbit hole, like once that rumination cycle starts, you really can put yourself into this, you know, deeper hole that can almost. And I purposely envision it as a scene from Alice in Wonderland, when she's falling down the hole, but everything seems magnified and warped. And I really think with the way that we can talk to ourselves in the cognitive distortions that we have, that's actually a really good example of what that can look like for us. So in listening to my client, talk about her financial stress, it then jumped into social and relational stress and anxiety that she was experiencing, and really identifying how the financial stress was impacting her social life and her romantic life. And then, before you can even process that it then jumps to negative self talk, but that was primarily directed towards insecurities that she knew that she had had body image self esteem, kind of just this generic general questioning of who am I? And do I like the way that I look? Do I like the person that I am? Do I like the way that I show myself to the world. And as the client was talking, and I was trying my best to stay, present in that grounded moment, in that here and now moment, like, you know, they always say and in school as we're learning. It almost felt like I was looking in a mirror. And I was listening to the inner narrative that she has. And I was like, Oh my God, this sounds just like the inside of my head sometimes. And distinctly, you know, times where my anxiety has really been at its worst. And to be completely honest, I think to be sitting where I'm actually sitting currently. And to look around and be like, I'm sitting in my childhood home, surrounded by things that I'm familiar with, with my dog. You know, I'm dressed professionally, but you know, I'm still on a couch. I'm still in a comfortable setting. And it kind of just transported me back to this moment of, you know, being As a individual in high school, having the same thoughts of questioning who I am, what my life was going to look like realizing how bad my anxiety was impacting my friendships and my relationships overall. You know, high school is generally a transitionary period. So at that point, my self esteem and my self confidence was pretty low. As I was trying to feel comfortable in my own skin, and really understand that, you know, I'm unique, and I may not look like everyone else that goes to my school. And that's okay. But that was something that I wasn't ready to accept yet. And that's not something that I was ready to kind of process. So to sit here, look in a camera, right? Literally look at this client, and then still be surrounded by everything I was like, this feels too close to home, I'm having way too much countertransference about this. And I was really just like, oh, shit, like, I am a terrible therapist, like, I didn't even sit with that I'm a bad therapist, and I'm questioning it, I jumped right into, I am a terrible therapist, I am not cut out for this, if I'm having this much countertransference and also have been distracted by my countertransference in session that I would just miss the past five minutes. So whenever she just said that, of course was like, Alright, I tried to I need to focus to at least give an answer at this point. Otherwise, I am just going to be like, I'm so sorry, you have to repeat all of that, which isn't professional or ethical as well. So I think the combination of not only being in a childhood home, having to look at someone where your focus is really on the screen. And your it really is like a reflective imaging. It did feel like I was looking at myself. And it was looking at different versions of myself, whether it's my presence of or past versions of myself that I've tried to work through in therapy, or that I've felt like I had sort of processed but new still existed within my subconscious. And that was a really triggering moment for myself, because it then invoked and triggered the same symptoms that my client was having on her own for me. So the mirroring of that was really a trigger for this question of Am I a bad therapist? You know, a lot of the thoughts that I then had was, am I cut out for this work? Like, do I really need to process more of my own stuff in therapy before I can work with any client? Who experiences anything similar to an experience that I've had? You know, am I going to have to transfer her to another clinician because I'm not ready to work with this? Or because I'm having so much countertransference about what's going on.
Allie Joy 13:14
Oh my goodness, I have to say like your story, I feel like, well, obviously it resonates with me so much. But I feel like I can't imagine any listener right now hearing this story, especially like not only with countertransference. But hearing you talk about like being in your home, right, like doing what we do on telehealth has been convenient. And we've adapted, of course, but I feel similarly like sometimes it does feel like I'm bringing we're literally bringing our work into our homes. And for you it makes so much sense of like, when we're in an office, at least for myself, I feel like I can healthily compartmentalize a bit or like it feels a little bit separate. But when you're sitting in your home, and then being vulnerable and feeling that countertransference like I don't know about you, Kathryn, but I really was like sitting here like, yeah, yeah, like yes to everything you said.
Kathryn Esquer 14:04
The analogy that came to my mind is it's like when you hold two mirrors up in front of each other, and the reflections just continue into the abyss. That's kind of what this countertransference feels like to me when I'm in it. Like it's just us. It's just a deep, deep reflection hole of I'm feeling what they're feeling. They're feeling what I've experienced, and we're like, Am I making it worse while they're triggering me? How can I contain it? It's just this like, bouncing back and forth of reflections that doesn't seem to end?
Samantha Southard 14:38
Yeah, and I think that's almost what it felt like. Because it's more than just the one reflection of your of yourself right in front of you. It's all of these different versions of yourself. And you know, something that I always kind of champion is to be like authentically yourself, but I say that knowing that in my past there were times When I wasn't myself, right part of growing up is realizing who you are and learning how to express yourself authentically and not change yourself because of a social environment and not, you know morph to whatever expectations and standards you think that you need to. So I had seen, as you said, like all these different versions of myself that almost seem to go on exponentially. that terrified me, to be honest, that I was like, Oh, my God, I'm stuck. I'm screwed.
Kathryn Esquer 15:29
Oh, how am I gonna pull myself out of this never ending here. I give you so much credit for one, recognizing what was actually happening to you in that moment, I think it's pretty easy for us to just at least I find myself sometimes, oh, I'll deal with that. countertransference later, leaving myself back to the present moment and not address it. So I give you so much credit for recognizing it and noticing it as something to be worked on. Because here you are, you know, you have a great, it sounds like a great connection with this client. This client comes in motivated, ready to do work. And it sounds like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but an ideal client of yours, would you say?
Samantha Southard 16:11
Yes, 100%. I adore an ideal client who adore her.
Kathryn Esquer 16:15
I love those clients, an ideal client. And yet here you are triggered, and I'm having so much countertransference that you're questioning? Can I do the work? Can I work with her? And if I can't Well, I would assume you're questioning, like hinted at the deeper level. If I can't work with my ideal client, what does that say about me as a clinician?
Samantha Southard 16:38
Absolutely, I think you hit the nail on the head with that. And I think just knowing at the time when this happened, I was still like, barely out of grad school at that point. And even now, still, that barely out of grad school experience. I think that almost felt like that made it worse for me. Because I'm still working on finding out who I am as a clinician and finding my identity that I know I said earlier, but really trying to figure out one who was my ideal client, but who was a therapist that I want to be in session. And, of course, you know, I understand we're all human, we all have things come up for us. But when you're fresh out of grad school, you almost have this urge to be that perfect clinician right away. And that anytime you feel like there's countertransference, or there's a mistake of any kind, it's almost like unacceptable, because that's not what we're taught to be initially. That's something that they say you can have down the road. Once you're licensed once you have a full caseload and you're good to go.
Allie Joy 17:45
Which is such a funny expectation like well, that expectation but like message that does come across because how are you supposed to be perfect right on early in your career, and then make the mistakes later, like that's backwards. That's not how things work at all, but I also will say too, it's so funny, like, it is so valid and I definitely felt this fresh out of grad school, but I'm one of my I think I'm like eight years into my career now. And this still comes up like it doesn't go away seasoned or not. But it does hit differently. I feel like when you are fresh out of grad school, I think I probably asked myself every day like once I graduated, I was like, what did I learn anything like Am I a bad therapist? What am I doing?
Kathryn Esquer 19:34
This reminds me I just got out of working with my supervisees right before going into this recording and literally something I said like a half hour ago was yeah, we have to practice and live in the grays. Like there is no perfection or black and white and the more we think that there is the more we're setting ourselves up for failures and insecurities and impostor syndrome like learning that the gray is what we work in and there is is no option but gray that it can it can be framed so, So Samantha, I'm so curious, what did you do? How did you handle the situation of being triggered by an ideal client, because you saw yourself in what she was telling you.
Samantha Southard 20:18
Actually to be fully transparent was I freaked out, I sat with all of my negativity, all of my own negative self talk all of my own anxiety. And I was like, I need to just sit with this for a minute. Because I don't really think it's something that I can compartmentalize and shelve later. So in the moment in the session, I was like, I'm going to just pretend that it doesn't exist, so that I can focus my full attention, and emotional capacity and compassion to my client, so that I can give her what she needs for now. Once I had ended the meeting, I truly closed my laptop. And just like, truthfully, I have a friend, one of my best friends is also a therapist, and I called her and I was like, I don't know what to do, I am feeling triggered, she's like, cool, we'll have to talk to your supervisor. But I think I then needed that same compassion that I was giving her, like, I needed the reassurance that what I was experiencing was normal. And the validation that things will still be okay even though I'm feeling this. So I had supervision the next morning, and I love my supervisor, I am very fortunate to have such an amazing supervisor that I can be so transparent with. And I had shared with her what I had experienced. And she really gave me this piece of feedback that I found to be incredibly helpful was that the universe will sometimes provide us with clients that we need to have. And just because you're experiencing countertransference, or you're feeling triggered in the moment, that doesn't make you a bad therapist, that actually makes you a good therapist, and it makes you human. Because we're going to have those moments where something within us is triggered, whether that is a good feeling, or in my case, a negative anxious feeling. And I think in her explanation of telling me that the universe provides me with a client that I needed, she further explained it, as it forces us to not only look at us, retrospectively. But it also can illuminate an area that we're really passionate about, and an area that we can connect to, on a deeper level. Because we get it from a personal experience. And she said, of course, you know, you're going to feel like you're looking in a mirror sometimes, but I think that provides you to have a better connection with her as a client. So I have not transferred her to another clinician, I'm still working with her. And she is wonderful. I truly do adore her as a client. And I think as I've had more experiences as a clinician, and I've had moments where I've been triggered, where it's not just seeing yourself in the client, but whether it's something the client said that maybe on a personal level rubbed you the wrong way. I have learned that it's okay to feel these feelings. Of course, remain professional composure. And don't say anything that would, you know, deeply offend or hurt the client. But that it's okay to have these experiences because I say this to other clients of mine, where, you know, no one can really tell you how you feel, right? They don't live within your body, your mind, your headspace, your emotional capacity. So the way that it comes up for you is the way that it comes up for you. I have to learn and have been working on it to apply it to myself.
Allie Joy 24:16
Absolutely. Such a great way to say it.
Kathryn Esquer 24:21
And your level of insight is so incredible. And you keep saying you're only a few years out of grad school, but that level of insight is is admirable and like I just envy I don't think I had that level. So, so fresh out of grad school. And I love how your supervisor almost gave you permission to have countertransference. They said like the universe gives us clients we need like this is not a run away from the situation black or white. This is you can feel this and continue to do good clinical work. And I wonder how you know, over the course of your work with you're continuing to work with this client today How have you managed the countertransference? You know, beyond that one session? And has it come up again? And what did you do?
Samantha Southard 25:06
It has come up again, and I think it's truly shown for myself. And it's really highlighted in the examples of the negative self talk, right? Because if I say, Well, I'm just talking to myself negatively, and I'm not being nice to myself, but it's when you hear those detailed examples of, well, this is what I'm saying to myself, that I can say, Okay, I know I've had this thought before, I can hear my own voice in her narrative, saying this to myself and having it reflected back at me. So I have found it helpful to one be aware of the environment that I'm in. When I am doing sessions with her just to make sure that I can feel like it's not just at my childhood home, but a semi professional and calming space, I have found it to be helpful to journal for my own self, if I have the time to in between sessions. After I am with her, there are a few books that I've purchased from my own self off of Amazon, that I love. And I use those as these like quick five to 10 minute like grounding exercises, so that I realized, like, Okay, one, I'm not that same person that like it's a reflection of that it makes sense. My past self is not the same person that I am today. And to remind myself of that, I have ensured that if something comes up for me in a major way, I can of course, contact my supervisor. But something that I have also utilized a lot in my life is this mantra, an affirmation of to strive for progress and not perfection. So to remind myself, like, even though I went to school, and I have a degree in mental health counseling, like, I'm not a perfect clinician, and no one really is, you know, we all have these moments of mistakes and slip ups. But to at least be self aware, like you had said, and to possess insight into, okay, I made them specific, and I have to own up to it helps us grow. And I think that has been a helpful reminder to have for myself. And it's the point where you know, what, I'm struggling with the countertransference. Or if I'm feeling triggered, I keep it as a background on my computer, so that when I close it, I have that reminder that it's there.
Allie Joy 27:54
Yeah, and I feel like that speaks to you know, like, why we created this podcast, like, really, I feel like we need to quote your words and put it on our website. Because really, that's what we're aiming for here is like, just to like, almost like you said earlier, Kathryn, like, give ourselves permission. And that acceptance, it's like, we are going to make mistakes, and it's okay. And so often in our field, like it feels isolating, like we talk about all the time, or it feels like we don't talk about these mistakes. So to have you come on today, and really be so vulnerable, that we truly appreciate it. I can't imagine a single clinician who could not relate to this moment. And it's just so great to talk about because, you know, the more we normalize it and hear from others of like, yes, we are going through this, we experienced these things, but it doesn't make us a bad therapist. So I again, I'm connecting so much to your story. And really imagine that so many other people are too.
Samantha Southard 28:44
Thank you, I really do appreciate that. Because of course, despite that I have spoken with a supervisor about it and moved on, you know, the fears always, of course creep up every once in a while that I really am a bad therapist, and that I am making mistakes, I think to have these forums and these opportunities to talk with other clinicians and kind of take away some of that professional pressure, that we have to be that perfect clinician and to kind of show the world that we are not only knowledgeable but almost like I don't even I don't even know what the right word is to be because I don't think there's one that exists that we like have to be like these, these perfect little therapist beings.
Kathryn Esquer 29:31
Right and we can be humans and therapists and that's, that's something that stuck out to me that you went to your friend who also happens to be a clinician and you had your supervisor, I think that highlights the importance, you know, especially in early on in your career where it's easier probably to have those peer supports existing prior from grad school that carry into your early career trajectory, or the fact you're under supervision. But even mid and late career professionals, therapists counselors psychologists It's so important. I know I'm on a soapbox, but to have those peer consultations, because no one else is going to get what we get understand what we know to be true. Having these transference and countertransference issues in the therapy room. And I just, I'm just so grateful for my peer network. And I think that this is a prime example of it could have very turned out, it could have turned out very differently had you not have those trusted clinical peers to go to.
Samantha Southard 30:28
Absolutely. And I think a part of me is aware of that. Because there's another version of myself somewhere out there that could have completely realized that this isn't what I am, like need to do for myself, this isn't the field for me and given up. And, you know, that idea is unsettling because it almost is invalidating the permission to be human, and to have these experiences of feeling countertransference and feeling triggered by our client. You know, I'm a very sarcastic person by nature, but like really realizing that therapy from the clinicians aspect isn't always sunshine and rainbows, like we need to work on ourselves, we need to own our stuff we need to do, you know, hard work on ourselves, and to really be self reflective constantly, not just we do it once, and we think we're done.
Kathryn Esquer 31:31
Right, once in grad school, and then we're done are things over once we're licensed? Absolutely not. So you have given us so much to think about and chew on throughout this whole episode. But if you could Samantha summarize, what would you tell someone, maybe your friend who's also a clinician, if they came to you saying, Hey, I'm having major countertransference with this client, I think that I went through exactly what they're going through, and it's really highlighting my own insecurities. What would you say to them?
Samantha Southard 32:01
First is to just name it. Right? I think a lot of the times we can recognize something, but it can feel really hard to actually identify it. Intuitively just say it out loud, that we can think it in our head, but to actually verbalize it means that we're putting it into existence. And I think that that's helpful to start accepting the reality of the situation. I think I truthfully, would let them express themselves however they needed to be, if they needed a not professional rant, and to just let it come out like word vomit, then that's fine. That's what they need in the moment. But to then provide them with the support to say like, this is okay, you know, and maybe even utilize the words that my supervisor had given me is that the universe provides us with the clients that we need, and that it helps us grow, but work on ourselves individually as well. Just remember, you know, one of the sayings that a lot of mental health advocates use is that, like, it's okay to not be okay. So not only does that apply to us, but it's also okay for us to feel our own feelings. And to experience countertransference. And to kind of let some of, you know what we're told and what that expectation is of us to kind of fall to the wayside a little bit. Because I think it's important for any person to sit with their feelings so that they can begin to process it. And that naming it is a really difficult first step.
Allie Joy 33:48
Absolutely. So well put, and again, we've said it, but I'm going to keep saying it. Thank you so much for sharing this story today. Again, it just feels so relatable. But Samantha, if any listener wants to connect with you outside of the podcast, where can they find you?
Samantha Southard 34:02
Absolutely. And feel free if like anyone wants just, you know, support in their own countertransference or just, you know, that peer network, you can of course, reach out to me. My website is www.theeblondetherapist.com. And then my instagram handle is @the.blonde.therapist
Allie Joy 34:31
Perfect that's such a great brand. And as always, we will link all of that in our show notes. I love that so much. We will all connect with you on socials and things and again, just thank you so much for sharing today. It was a pleasure to hear your story.
Samantha Southard 34:43
Of course, thank you guys so much for having me. Your platform is so wonderful and so helpful to clinicians in training, well established clinicians, anyone who's even thinking about the mental health field and just people who need to feel like, you know, it's okay to be a bad therapist.
Allie Joy 35:00
And thank you so much.
Kathryn Esquer 35:04
And that's it. The OG bad therapists Alan Catherine are signing off for the week.
Allie Joy 35:10
Make sure to subscribe and leave us a review. We pick a few lucky five server viewers to shout out and invite for a 15 minute consultation with the both of us to talk about anything on your mind. From clinical work to podcasting we're game, just make sure to leave us your name and location in the review.
Kathryn Esquer 35:26
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Allie Joy 35:35
Our podcast is produced and edited by my amazing husband Austin joy. He also created the music for our intro and outro you can find this song along with many others on any music platform under the artist air for effect. And if you're about therapist starting your own podcast, contact Austin for his full suite of podcast and sound production services. You can find him on Instagram at air for fact.
Kathryn Esquer 35:59
And don't forget, were all bad therapists