21. Countertransference Transformation
Season 1, Episode 21
Find out how Rob doubled down on his discomfort and used countertransference to launch his personal and professional growth. He shares how his experience during internship at an IOP rotation allowed him to grow in so many unexpected ways.
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Episode Transcript - Countertransference Transformation
Allie Joy 00:16
Kathryn, when I say the word countertransference what is the first thing that comes to mind? What's that first word?
Kathryn Esquer 02:11
Yuck. countertransference. It's uncomfortable. It makes me feel yucky. And it's usually because I'm triggered.
Allie Joy 02:21
Yeah, and we have talked about countertransference before and we will continue to talk about it again. But today's story is so unique. We're going to hear from Rob and how he really was able to transform a moment of countertransference and utilize it for his own personal growth and career growth.
Kathryn Esquer 02:41
What transpires out of this one moment of transference is incredible. You will not believe how it shifted his career path, his personal and relational growth. It's a great story. And just a reminder that this episode is for entertainment purposes only. And it is not a substitute for clinical consultation, ethical guidance or therapy itself.
Allie Joy 03:02
All right, well, this is episode number 21 of Am I A bad Therapist. Let's get into it.
Kathryn Esquer 03:10
So Rob, welcome to the podcast.
Rob Binger 03:14
Hey, nice to be here. Thank you for having me.
Kathryn Esquer 03:16
Absolutely. And you know, before we get started in hearing about your bad therapists moment or moments, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Rob Binger 03:25
Yeah, so I'm, I'm currently a therapist over in Montgomery County, Maryland. I got my master's from Frostburg State University in 2020. So graduated right in the height of the pandemic, which is something. So I've been now working out in the field as a community based therapist for a couple of years now. I work primarily with kids and adolescents right now. My previous experience had been pretty much all adults. So that was quite the shift. But yeah, and now I do a mental health related tiktok YouTube page. Yeah, just diving into the field.
Kathryn Esquer 04:06
We love following you Therapy Rob, so thanks for that. So what tell us about your bad therapist moment?
Rob Binger 04:16
Yeah. Um, so for a while, when I was getting my master's, I did a I did a job. It was a psychiatric rehabilitation professional. So PRP. Um, and so I did a lot of like, community work, a lot of like, just connecting people with resources, all that stuff. And I had these opportunities to kind of practice the things that I was learning in the classroom at the same time. And so I had gotten a good little bit of experience before going into my internship, which I ended up having at the hospital overnight in Cumberland, Maryland, where I was where I was learning. And so while working at the hospital, we would cycle from, you know, area to area. So starting out in the psychiatric er doing crisis assessments that moved over to the behavioral health unit actually working with the inpatient staff and patient's everything there, and then later moved to the intensive outpatient groups. So IOP groups were for, I guess, people who don't know, that's come like a step down from the hospital. And so I've had a good bit of experience leading up to this. And so, you know, all through a master's, you know, we will talk about your stimulus value, we've talked about transference, you know, things to expect for what might happen internally, what the unconscious is doing all that kind of stuff. But there was this moment, pretty early on in IOP, I hadn't done groups before. And so it was a pretty interesting experience to get into. And so for the beginning, I was told by the person who I was shadowing, just kind of, you know, be there, watch the process happen. And as we would move through it, you know, if you feel like there's something you can say that you want to kind of add in, you know, go ahead and just start slowly working your way into, into facilitating. And so for myself, I, I initially went to therapy myself back in 27, not twice, and back in 2015, I had been in the throes of addiction for a really, really long time, good bit of trauma, a lot of things that led to a really big breakdown in my life. And so, from the moment that I went, and I got therapy, you know, started my recovery journey, I was confident wanted to be a therapist, but I wasn't exactly prepared for the transference that comes, I think, with being in recovery yourself, and, you know, having your own traumatic experiences, and then being in a room full of people who are in the throes of that situation. And so there was one specific day pretty early on, in that process went up, the transparency hit me, hit me very hard. And so that was, yeah, I guess that's the story I wanted to share today.
Kathryn Esquer 06:50
I think that most of us listening and or recording, this podcast can absolutely relate to that, whether it be our recovery, or our own mental health struggles, or even just situations, like I find myself having a lot of countertransference with relational patterns that are similar to mine. And so, you know, Rob, can you tell us a little bit more about what the situation that caused this countertransference was like?
Rob Binger 07:15
Yeah, so um, there were a couple of things that, you know, were involved in my addiction, but one of the really big things was alcohol. You know, I think being in a college environment, I had this, this misconception about how much everybody else was drinking. And so it seemed very normal for a very long time until it became very obvious that it wasn't, it wasn't healthy, at least. And so, in the first few days of of working in IOP, there, I remember there was this one gentleman who had been, he had been there since I had started going, he was part of the usual, the usual group. And he was really struggling with alcohol use at the time he had been struggling for I mean, years by this point. And so I remember one day, now I'm sitting there, you know, kind of off in the corner, the facilitators more close to the center, and I was listening to him share, and he was talking about a lot of how alcohol had taken a lot from him. And more specifically, one of the things that he was really holding on to that day, was the fact that he felt that it was really taking away the relationship that he had with his kid. And for myself, I mean, it's, it's hard to hear just in the first place. Because he was, I mean, he's very visually upset. But you know, alcoholism is something that's run in my family, it's something that kind of took my dad and I's relationship away from us. And so I think, hearing him kind of talk about it and talk about the regret that he had. It was a lot of those things, that I feel like my dad had never said to me. And so for me, I remember like sitting the corner, like on like the verge of tears, like it, like was just really hitting me and like, I'm trying to keep my my head and my therapist mode, like, Okay, well, like, here are the symptoms of addiction, here are some things that we could be facing there. And then I'm trying to like, imagine for him, what it's going to be like being the father in that situation. Because for so much time in my life, I had imagined myself, both lived myself being the son in the situation. And so hearing that perspective that I think I never really thought about, you know, it was very deeply triggering for me, because, like, you know, Dad would would from time to time because we continue to talk, and he would talk about, you know, like, one of my biggest regrets in my life was, you know, walking out on you, Lauren, my sister, and it never really, like hit home into that moment. And so, I sat in the corner, trying to kind of come to terms with so many things in my life, and I'm trying to figure out like, okay, like, where does this leave me personally, and then all the while trying to figure out like, okay, like, well, like, do I say something? Should I just stay out of this? You know, you know, and so, that was the process I kind of found myself in.
Kathryn Esquer 10:00
One, thank you so much for sharing this because I don't think I recognized it before you just shared this very clear example. But I can relate to the fact that my work as a therapist has made me a much more compassionate empathetic human being, because have seen that other perspective and other side when we were typically the roll across from them. And it sounds like that hit you like a, what's the phrase a ton of bricks, a ton of bricks all at once, all while you are, you know, shadowing, this is your and it sounds like you're training in IOP correct me if I'm wrong, but this is like your first, you know, first impression management and here you are sitting in the side, you know, having this major transference and thinking of your own relationship with your father.
Rob Binger 10:51
Right. Right. And I mean, I, you know, had a bit of mental health experience prior to this, and, you know, working in the like psychiatric er, working behavior health unit, you hear a lot of really tough things all the time. I mean, when you're doing, you know, risk assessments and everything like that people are telling you really deeply troubling things. And, um, yeah, and so I think for like, a longest time, I'd had so much anger built up towards my dad, and I, you know, there were so many things that I think he hadn't really said to us or just hadn't really gotten through to us. Because, like, you know, he would, he would, every once in a while, you know, say, like, you know, one of my biggest regrets in life is, you know, walking out on you and your sister. And it wasn't until I go into this room with kind of like that, that isn't taneous compassion that we have, as therapists, like, I'm going to walk into this room, I'm going to be empathetic, I'm going to do my best to really hear people out. You know, and being in that mode, and then really hearing, you know, really hearing it and really hearing somebody's experience for like, what that's like for them, you know, being in that position, I think, a lot of the anger that I had built up towards my dad up until that point, really kind of got shaken by the foundation's, like, somebody just grabbed the bottom of the tree, really, really shook it. And so I think I, yeah, I just got caught in such a weird position of trying to, like, figure a lot of my stuff out, you know, it and then simultaneously try to I guess, talk to the talk to the other individual, because it kind of came to me that like, you know, if I'm feeling the empathy to this extent, that I think that we can have a real conversation about this to some point. Um, and so I had kind of probed probe that guy to to talk a little bit further about, like, you know, what are these regrets? What do you what do you? What do you feel like your kid thinks feel? And what do you wish you could talk to your kid about? And this is kind of the point that I have wondered about my own first performance I was I was sitting there and never questioning if I could be a therapist anymore. That was definitely one of my first reactions. But like, even looking back on it, like I think about whether or not that was the good move, you know, whether it was me asking him because I felt that this would be a good thing for him to process. It'd be cathartic. It would be just, if it's something he could build on. Or if it was me asking for my own sake, you know, asking because now it's like, I'm sitting in the room with my dad, and I want to hear what my dad would say to me. And so I still kind of go back and forth on it. Because like, Yeah, I mean, the motivations were, I think positive in one way. And then in another way, they were kind of mixed up in all the stuff that I was going through here in the corner of the room. And it resulted in a good conversation, and a lot of people came and supported him and they shared their experiences, and we continue to go on, it wasn't like, we didn't go to like a screeching halt that clearly signaled to me. Oh, Rob, you are definitely a bad therapist. But yeah, it was it's something that I still I still think about from time to time, especially like when I started to experience transference. Yeah, it's, it's experience. I'm happy that I had for sure.
Kathryn Esquer 13:55
Wow. So here you are having major countertransference. And you just double down and lean into it. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think it would be unreasonable to assume that all therapists, no therapists, or all therapists have never asked a question for their own gain, right? That is something that is a natural bias. I think we work really hard not to do it. But here's a very clear example of you being in a situation that was triggering overwhelming and emotion filled for you. And asking a question that, on one hand, could help the client but also could help you and I wonder if you have you, did you ever think that it could be both beneficial to you and the client?
Rob Binger 14:42
That's kind of where I hope it ended up. I know, in terms of like the group process, it seems like it was, you know, it was a good thing to talk about, because it gave people I think, a direct line into into what his thought process was that they could then contribute on and you know, He's got all this remorse, he's got all this guilt and the guilt is the thing that's really pushing him down. It's the thing that's really pushing him back into drinking. And so or at least it's one of the aspects. He also had, I mean, tons of issues with poverty. I mean, it was really rough situation. But you know, people were able to vent directly talked about, like, you know, how do we know that these are the things that your kids thinking about you, you know, how much of this is you filling in the blanks, how much of this is your own guilt, your own shame, feeding into this kind of narrative that keeps pushing you back into into your addiction. And so on that end, I feel like there's definitely some positives for it. And so I kind of I do try to kind of empathize myself as well of like, yeah, like you were getting heavily triggered in the moment, like, people when they're heavily triggered, we, I've worked with trauma live, and so I gotta talk to kids. Like, you know, when you're triggered, you know, you got to kind of forgive yourself, but whether you respond from time to time. And so for myself, I have definitely reached the point where I'm like, It's okay. Like, you, I there was no malicious intent. You know, we talked about about that first priority in therapy, the first do no harm. So I feel like it came from a place where I felt it could be productive. With with a dash of the selfish. Geez, I guess.
Allie Joy 16:16
Yeah. So it's again, so I really agree with Kathryn like, I do think it can be both. And I'm glad you have that reflection of like, looking at both sides of it. But so up to this point, you have been triggered in this group, again, was this like, really early on? Was this the first group you sat in on IOP?
Rob Binger 16:34
I think it's the second or third session?
Allie Joy 16:36
So very early on. So I'm curious of what happened next, like after this one group that seemed very triggering? Did you talk to the CO facilitator afterwards? Or your supervisor like, what did you do next? And how did you deal with it?
Rob Binger 16:48
Yeah, so I was lucky enough where that the person who was the CO facilitator, who was, you know, kind of guiding me along the IoT process made me fall in love with IOP, fall in love with groups. She was so compassionate, and she was just like, so warm and welcoming. That like, we with IOP. For adults, it's like a three hour long session. And so every, like, 45 to 50 minutes, we take a break, we go into the office, and she would always utilize that time of like, okay, what are you noticing? What are you feeling? What are you seeing, and so we shut the door, I was like, I got to talk to you about what just happened to me, like, immediately. And so we like we process through a little bit, we had to get into the next hour of, of the groups, we didn't get to do a ton immediately. But the I brought it up to her almost immediately, like, this is what I'm feeling. And she's like, it's okay, like you're recognizing it, that's important. And so she pretty much took the third hour from there, because it's all psychoeducation from that point, house, like, I don't think I can do too much more in the group right now. But she was respectful of, you know, she didn't shame me for it. And so she took it from there. I talked to my third, my own therapist about it very quickly thereafter. Do I have set before I think all therapists should have their own therapist, especially when you're first starting out, is so important to be able to work through some of the countertransference. And so, yeah, we process that stuff very quickly. It helped me personally, I think, to start working with some of my own trauma and work through some of my own, you know, feelings of my drinking and all of those pieces. So yeah, I kind of jumped headlong into let's get the support. Let's figure out what's going on. Let's, yeah, let's grow from this.
Kathryn Esquer 18:33
Yeah, I love how you let this experience in. You took it and you shine, you pinpointed a light on it. And you said let's dive in. Let's use this bar for my own development, and both personally and professionally. And I don't know if this is too personal. But I'm dying to know, did this impact your relationship with your father at all? Yeah,
Rob Binger 18:53
I it still took a little bit of time and a little bit of processing. But I think it really opened the door to me, forgiving him, or at least not. Not necessarily, like totally forgiving. But accepting that like, you know, there's nothing I can change about that. And you're really beginning to understand that, like, yeah, he was drinking heavily, like he had kids when he was really young. He was heavy and heavy and his addiction. You know, there were a lot of things going on, that he just wasn't ready for. And so I've definitely reached that point where, like, I've accepted that. I talked to him, you know, and I talked to him, you know, without a lot of that, like, underlying animosity. You know, and my sister and I have had conversations about where we kind of stand with things and where we stand with our stepfather. You know, because we have a stepmom and a stepfather now and so we talked about that and everything but yeah, it's, it's, I think, done a lot for the way that I feel about my own father and it's letting me let go of a lot of that burden that I was holding on to for so long.
Allie Joy 19:58
So Rob, it's so amazing that it led to this like personal journey. And I feel like that does happen for myself even like, as we see our clients growing, progressing, I feel like sometimes there I can almost like see my own progression journey through other people's experiences and stories. I'm gonna take us back to the group. I'm curious. What was it like walking into the next group? I don't know if it was the next day if you were going every day? Or what was going through your mind walking back into that room?
Rob Binger 21:40
Yeah, um, I think I had a I mean, definitely some fear about like, okay, what are we gonna do today? You know, because I mean, I'm still getting used to the group process, and I'm trying to ease myself more and more into facilitating. And so there's, of course, that fear of like, you know, as I see people start checking in on the computer, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, that's a lot of people. That part, but also dealing with the, you know, okay, yesterday was a tough one. But you know, we've gotten through it, Rebecca today. And so I, I didn't feel too many negative feelings about it. At the point at that point. The guy I can't remember if he came back in or not. He was a little bit. Yeah, cuz yeah, he did continue to come in, because we had like a whole bus from like a local crisis center would come in, and they bring people for IOP. And so yeah, he did come back. I don't remember him being like this. Having any kind of like a central point in that group. I think we had kind of deviated towards somebody else's issue for that day. And so we didn't have to, you know, come face to face with it immediately. But yeah, it was definitely a little nervous going into it. And we had a good conversation, the CO facilitator myself leading into it, of like, okay, let's read from yesterday, like, what are we going to do? You know, all that stuff? I hadn't had a chance to talk to my therapist just yet, I think at that point, but it was, it was it was going to be happening. But yeah, the group went well, I ended up really loving IOP I love facilitating it. The agency that I'm working at now, I had very quickly into working with them started trying to encourage them to have their own IOP program. And so now I spearhead a, an IOP program for them for kids and adolescents. So yeah, it was a life changing.
Kathryn Esquer 23:34
Not often do we hear about a life changing IOP experience from the clinicians. Incredible. I'm so glad you're sharing this and hopefully listeners can take this and, and go look for their own awesome IOP experiences, because I know that we are in desperate need of more IOP clinicians around the around the country so. So Rob, it sounds like this story really highlights the possibility or the opportunity to take a triggering countertransference filled moment and use it so often we look at those moments as Oh goodness, I don't want to do harm to the to the client, I need to get this in check for the client, but you took it and you use it as a springboard for your own professional and personal work outside of your of your job outside of your clinical work. And I just think that's so such an opportunity that we don't necessarily highlight or talk about or focus on when we talk about countertransference. It's a lot of times perceived as this negative derailleur or possible derailleur. But it could also be the double edged sword of it could be a springboard for our own growth. And so if if there's some clinicians out there listening who are currently or maybe in the future, find themselves in a situation where they are feeling absolutely reminded of a person in their life that they have struggled with with their relationships sitting across From them, what? What advice would you give them?
Rob Binger 25:06
So, therapy, number one, for sure. But I think also like in the moment, I think we've just like you said, there's there's so much shame wrapped up in like when we break down in a sense as clinicians, like, I think sometimes we can put ourselves on such a pedestal in a sense, and like, just like I'm a professional, I go in, and I do my job, and I do it well, and I'm always empathetic, and nothing ever gets to me. But it's like, we're human beings. And so I think being able to, you know, feel these things is, it's a natural part of empathy. Like, if you are a therapist, and you're, you're trying to empathize with people, sometimes things get in, and then they really get in. And I think that it's something I think, to celebrate, rather than to feel so much shame about. It's one of the core problem.
Allie Joy 25:48
So we do have these, like recurring topics that come up, we talked about countertransference, many times, and I know we will again, but hearing your perspective has been so eye opening and wonderful, like a different lens to look through it of like, again, like what you learned. And also the part I'm loving is how this impacted your career. Like how, you know, this experience that again, you could have said, super triggered, I'm not going to work with adult alcoholics perhaps or I'm not going to work with men who struggle with that, or, you know, it could have very easily been like, I don't think that populations for me, but I absolutely love it again, you face that you processed it in your own therapy. And again, this has led you to now in your career, you know, starting this IOP program with your agency for adolescents and children. It's so so incredible admirable, like, again, I'm so impressed with just how you took that experience and really transformed your, again, like your career path, almost.
Rob Binger 26:42
I appreciate that. It means a lot. Yeah, I think it's the field of psychology, mental health is so big that I think that the way I kind of looked at it was like, if you find an environment where you can feel these kinds of things, and I think that's, you know, if you can do the work outside of it and do the therapy. Yeah, I think that's an area where you can really, you know, you can do a lot of good work. And that's one of the reasons why like, I mean, trauma and addictions have been such a like passion of mine, because it's like, I have been on the other side of this, I've been through it and like, I know what it's like to go into that therapists office and like have to admit all these things and talk about all these things. And like, Yeah, I think it's if you can find something like that as a, as a clinician, I think that that can be a really positive experience. I mean, if when we even started therapy, we talked about, you know, doing what you love. And so I think if you can find something that makes you feel like that, then it's scary as hell. If you can work through it, I think that there's there can be some good stuff on the other side of things.
Kathryn Esquer 27:45
The overall message here is when we feel that discomfort, it might be an opportunity to double down and look at the beauty that's come out of it. That's incredible. So Rob, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. We're if people want if listeners want to connect with you outside of the podcast, where can they find you?
Rob Binger 28:06
You can find me on TikTok as well as YouTube, I'm Therapy Rob, I have an Instagram I don't do much with it. I am on Tik Tok and YouTube pretty consistently. So yeah, love to connect with people there.
Allie Joy 28:20
We will always link that oh, we're always gonna say the same thing. But we will always link that in the show notes for people who are looking for your links to connect with you. And just to echo what Kathryn said again, thank you so much for sharing this story with us today. I can see so many again personally I'm benefiting from this and I can just see so many listeners benefiting from hearing this. So again, thank you so much.
Rob Binger 28:40
I really appreciate you having me I appreciate the kind words it means a lot.