Sleepyhead
Season 1, Episode 8
Hear how Jorge earned the name “Sleepyhead” from executive management for falling asleep at meetings. We touch on therapist burnout, the demands of middle management, knowing your fit, knowing what energizes you and what depletes you, and taking risks.
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Episode Transcript - Sleepyhead
Allie Joy 00:12
Our mission on Am I a Bad Therapist is to normalize and humanize our existence as therapists. You can help us spread this message by subscribing and leaving us a review wherever you are right now. Whether that's YouTube, Apple, podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, you know the drill.
Kathryn Esquer
You can also help us by sharing Am I a Bad Therapist with your network. Whether it's on social media, your stories, or just between colleagues, every listener helps us make a difference in this field. And we'll always reshare if you tag us.
Allie Joy 01:33
If you're listening to the podcast, make sure to check out our pretty faces on our YouTube channel.
Kathryn Esquer 01:38
And if you're watching us on YouTube, make sure to head over to our podcast and leave a review. You can find all of our links in the notes below.
Allie Joy 01:45
We pick a few lucky five star reviewers to shout out and invite for a 15 minute consultation with the both of us to talk about anything on your mind. From clinical work to podcasting we're game, just make sure to leave us your name and location in the review. So Kathryn, when I say the word sleepy in a therapy context, what comes to mind?
Kathryn Esquer 02:09
Actually two things. One is, you know, Freud's patient falling asleep on his couch. And the second thing is the Seven Dwarfs going to therapy because I think they definitely need it at this point.
Allie Joy 02:23
Yeah, I agree. If you had to pick one of the doors to be a therapist to which one would you pick?
Kathryn Esquer 02:29
Gosh, um, that's a great question, Allie. I would pick sleepy because I really like teaching and sleep hygiene. At first, I was gonna say dopey, but then I wouldn't know what I'd work on him with. But sleep hygiene, you know, time limited. Some pretty, pretty standard interventions. And we're out the door. We're good.
Allie Joy 02:50
Yes, I like it. And then how about any stories? Do any stories come to mind for you, when we talk about sleepy in a therapist context?
Kathryn Esquer 02:59
Yeah, actually, they do. None that I have fallen asleep on. I've never been on like a chaise lounge, falling asleep in my in my therapy sessions, or as a therapist. But when I was in graduate school, I was going to weekly therapy. And it was in the therapist's home, the therapist had a agency job. She was you know, a leader at a at a large state agency. And it was very interesting schedule. She saw two clients after her work hours, and she saw one as soon as she got home. Then she had a hour break for dinner. And then she'd go eat dinner with her husband. And then she'd have another session after dinner. And I just I don't know how I knew this. But I always thought it was very interesting. Yeah. But she actually fell asleep on me one session. And it wasn't so, it could be debatable, and it wasn't super obvious. But there was a period where it was towards the end of our work together. So it wasn't high emotion, high intensity, I went in for a very specific life transition. And it was towards the end, when symptoms were reducing, there was a lot more chitchat than normal. And now being a therapist of several years, I recognize that that tends to be the most boring sessions for therapists, at least personally when they're really not of any substance. And she actually just kind of like, kept her eyes closed for a prolonged period of time. She didn't sway she didn't like nod her head, but I it to the point where I was like, are you okay? And she like snapped her eyes open. She's like, Yeah, Yeah, I'm okay. And then didn't say anything. So I'm pretty sure she kind of dozed off for a little bit and didn't you know, didn't address it. So, and I didn't push it and it didn't happen again. But I'm pretty sure she fell asleep on me. And then we ended we didn't terminate it wasn't a rupture of any sort. It did make me question oh, gosh, like, Am I boring her? Am I bringing the right things to therapy? And then shortly thereafter, maybe within the next month or so we talked about terminating jointly. I think she started the conversation. Because, you know, symptoms were reduced to a non clinical level. And I was using insurance at the time. So we did and it was appropriate to, yeah, a therapist fell asleep on me.
Allie Joy 05:20
Oh, my gosh, well, it happens. And we're going to hear today from Jorge who actually got the nickname sleepy head through the world was doing he was in a management, middle management position in an agency was, you know, really getting torn between different expectations and roles, and it was impacting him and he was so burnt out, he tells us how he was falling asleep in meetings, and got that nickname. And then we'll hear everything that happened after that.
Kathryn Esquer 05:47
Oh, I can't wait to hear the fallout of literally being called sleepyhead. So just a friendly reminder that everything we say here is for entertainment purposes is not to be a substitute for therapy, consultation or ethical guidance.
Allie Joy 06:01
All right, and this is episode number eight of an Am I a Bad Therapist? Let's get into it.
Kathryn Esquer 06:11
Welcome Jorge to Am I a Bad Therapist?
Jorge Fernandez 06:16
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Kathryn Esquer 06:18
So before we get into your situation and your story, tell us a little bit about yourself and your practice maybe how you got into mental health.
Jorge Fernandez 06:28
Sure, and my name is Jirge Fernandez. I am an LCSW here in Hamden, Connecticut. I run my own solo practice, Spanish and English bilingual working with teens, adults, couples, and families, I have been in business myself for three and a half years, but actually, I'm going on my 25th year in the field. I certainly can't believe it. You know, I have done it all from in home work to clinical supervision to running programs. You know, I have many good and bad therapist stories to share for sure.
Kathryn Esquer 07:17
It sounds like you've had quite a career. My goodness.
Jorge Fernandez 07:21
If you were to ever start like a war stories podcast, I could be a recurring gust.
Allie Joy 07:29
Oh, my goodness, well there's always so many stories, and we'd love to have you back to hear more. But why don't you tell us today what story you're going to share that made you feel like you were about therapist?
Jorge Fernandez 07:40
Sure. And I actually think it's going to be a bit therapeutic, because I don't think I've ever talked about this openly with colleagues. So so this is this is going to be interesting. So for six years, I ran an evidence based family therapy program. Very much what I thought was a dream job very much up my alley. And you know, it was, there were a lot of issues, there was a lot of conflict between model and agency. I also was going through a lot of personal stuff at the time, which really took me out of, you know, out of kind of really focusing on the job. And I honestly for the final three years of my job there just really started coasting. And one of the things that started happening was that I would start dozing off and I would doze off in the office and by myself, I dozed off a couple of times in supervision. And I began just falling asleep in meetings. And when I mean meetings, I mean, management meetings with even the CEO of the company. And it got to the point where the person who was my immediate supervisor, who I love dearly, who did this out of love and honesty and transparency, told me Listen, you have a reputation at this point. Like when I sit in executive meetings, you're not called Jorge anymore, you're called sleepyhead. So my nickname to upper management was Sleepyhead, because I'm the guy who kept on falling asleep.
Kathryn Esquer 09:39
Wow. Oh my goodness. So before we get into how you managed the reputation and how you manage the fallout of this sleekpyhead nickname. My first question is, did you realize this was happening?
Jorge Fernandez 09:54
Yeah, I mean, it was a very slow process. Like if you've ever fallen asleep somewhere you know that your eyes are getting heavy, then you're having trouble keeping focus. And then you start, you know, shifting your weight around, you get up, you splash water on your face, you have a drink of water you have you do all these things to try to get you out of it. And I certainly was doing these things, but it just kept on happening. And you know, I would catch myself after a couple of seconds. But by that point, you know, everybody had seen me.
Allie Joy 10:30
Wow. Well, I also have to this thank you for sharing this story. Like you said, you haven't really talked about this a lot of colleagues, but I feel like it is relatable. You know, like when we are burning the candle at both ends, we have personal stuff going on in our lives. Like, I feel like the running theme of what we talk about each week is that we are humans as well as therapists. And sometimes, you know, stuff like that comes up in our work. So again, thank you for being so transparent, so vulnerable that talking about it. How so? How long do you feel like it was going on? Like the falling asleep? How long do you think it lasted for before you heard about this nickname?
Jorge Fernandez 11:09
Oh, geez. Probably months. And I was certainly very, very aware of what was happening. I was trying everything possible. Drinking coffee and energy drinks, like, like, all this sort of thing. And it just when it happened, it would happen. And that would feel terrible about it afterwards and panic.
Kathryn Esquer 11:39
Yeah, it sounds like the coffee and energy drinks, I mean, are a bandaid on the root cause or the root problem of therapist or clinician burnout, right? And so this happened to you several years ago, right. But I can only imagine there's therapists out there thinking, Yeah, me too. I'm trying everything I can to stay awake in session. Even. I know that there have been times throughout my career where I have been a lot more lethargic and maybe more prone to some extra long blinks in therapy sessions. Um, but but this is this is absolutely the root, this highlights the root problem of therapists burnout.
Jorge Fernandez 12:24
Yeah. And I think for many of us, you know, it's about you know, we know, we know, we're burned out. But, you know, for valid reasons we stay at these jobs. We're afraid of the unknown we're afraid of health insurance, for example, you know, and we, we do everything possible to put these band aids on, but they stopped working after a while, you know, if you don't resolve the core problem.
Allie Joy 12:57
Yeah, I agree. I have another question. Were you in a purely supervisory role or were you still seeing clients at this time?
Jorge Fernandez 13:06
I was not seeing clients at the time. So I would you know, what I based I did everything else. Yeah. You know, so. So I know, this is home based. So I drove out and, you know, screened, the families, I did the supervision, I did the overall management of the program. I was driving, you know, pretty much all over the state of Connecticut.
Allie Joy 13:31
Yes. Wow. Definitely.
Jorge Fernandez 13:34
Meeting families. And you know, and that's where I felt best, you know, I felt my best when I was on the road when I was actually sitting in front of the clients themselves. Never fell asleep.
Kathryn Esquer 13:49
Okay, so you mentioned you know, some personal things are going on behind the scenes of your of your work. But what, you know, feel free to not dive into that if you don't feel comfortable? What else? What were the other factors, do you think contributing to this burnout?
Jorge Fernandez 14:11
Where I was working in they do do wonderful work. But you know, but I think the specific work that I was doing was sort of a square peg in a round hole with this larger agency, so I very much I was very much flying the flag of model fidelity, you know, and all, all my model fidelity numbers were fantastic. So the people who ran the model, were very happy with people who ran the agency were not because I was not necessarily doing things their way. So there was this very big disconnect with how I was viewed by one set of people and how I was viewed by the other And that was, that was incredibly hard for me.
Allie Joy 15:05
Yeah, it sounds exhausting.
Kathryn Esquer 15:10
So getting pulled between two different agendas. And here you were the middleman trying to make everybody happy.
Jorge Fernandez 15:16
Exactly being the buffer for staff just from, you know, all the stuff I was getting from above really trying to show that, you know, our numbers are great, you know, but but I wasn't doing things the way the agency wanted to do anything things away, the model wanted me to do them. And that was that that was very hard for me because I was very invested in the model.
Kathryn Esquer 15:47
And you said, I think that a lot of therapists out there, perhaps also in agencies or organizations can relate to this idea of a round peg in a square hole, or, you know, what, in terms of personality fit, right? When we are when we are tasked with work did that does not fit with what comes easy to us or, or our natural abilities, or even plays into some of the struggles we have as people as humans, as therapists, it is more draining emotionally, energy wise, it's just draining all around, what was so draining about being the middleman between these two agendas for you personally, that maybe other therapists can relate to and learn from.
Jorge Fernandez 16:31
Um, you know, it's I think that I kept on trying to make it work. For many reasons, it was a job that the model itself played to my strengths as a clinician, you know, I am trained as a structural family therapist, and, you know, that was structural and strategic family therapy, all the way. I enjoyed the challenges of working within a model and just kind of quantifying trying to quantify treatment results was always interesting to me. But, so I kept on trying to make it work because of that, but it wasn't working. It was a it was, it was a toxic environment for me, you know, I would go from being told I was doing a great job to being told I was doing a terrible job and just the whiplash effect was hard. You know, you know, what was, was very hard. And I imagine, you know, you know, I talked to many therapists, you know, I have clients who are therapists, know, who are working in community mental health settings, and they feel so incredibly proud of the work they're doing with clients, and, you know, and how they're growing as clinicians, and then they walk into rooms where they're being told that, you know, their numbers aren't high enough, or they're no show rate is too high, or, you know, or something about the quality of their notes. And, you know, and I very much feel their pain there.
Allie Joy 18:31
Yeah, that makes so much sense. Yeah, so, so far, you've shared so you are feeling that whiplash, which again, was like the word I was thinking in my head to have like a feeling so back and forth, burning the candle at both ends, you were feeling burnt out, and then you get told you have the nickname of sleepy head because you're falling asleep in meetings, what happened next, what did you do?
Jorge Fernandez 18:55
I, I just kept on trying, I mean, it was literally if I could, if I could put little sticks on my eyelids to keep them open like I I would have done so, you know, so, it was really more of what I talked about already, like, taking sure I had the coffee, you know, trying to purposely sit in uncomfortable ways. So that you know, I I would always I would always have have to move around. And I do think, you know, the sleepiness got better. But I also think that just, you know, I was absolutely burned out and I was you know, I was really, you know, my effort really started becoming happened towards towards the end, it just it was you know, I I could not see that I needed to make a move because I was afraid at the time What that move would be?
Kathryn Esquer 20:03
Yeah, I can imagine the fear of taking that leap. Right. And, and also what you mentioned earlier, you it sounds like you really believed in the work in the model. I did. So I could see the pole of wanting to stay and make it work.
Jorge Fernandez 20:18
Oh, we were changing families. We were absolutely, you know, we were absolutely changing families. I mean, you know, there, there were, there's so and some of the, you know, I got to supervise some of the best therapists I've ever met. You know, and it was, it was a great experience now, do I feel that they got the most out of me at the time? No, they didn't, you know, and that is, you know, and, and that is that, and I actually have had the chance. So, because I'm Facebook friends with them, I'm connected with them online the same way, Allie and I are connected online. And I've actually had the chance to apologize to a couple of them one that I know, I fell asleep on one. I said, Look, I'm really sorry, that, you know, and her response was, listen, like we were all in a bad situation at the time, I appreciate you greatly, you know, and that that meant the world to me, because, you know, I value my own reputation and my, to my own name and think I have a lot to give to both clients and and, and newer therapists. So you know, is feeling that perhaps someone didn't get the most of me is, is difficult.
Allie Joy 21:44
So what was the tipping point? Were you able to pull back on any of your supervisory duties? Did they offer any support to help you not feel so burnt out or what ended up happening within the agency?
Jorge Fernandez 24:49
There was a lot, I took time off a couple of times, you know but it just I think after a while it just it really did become too much for them. And, you know, there were some, you know, I was I was on a performance improvement plan. And, you know, I got all my facts, except for a couple of small ones that, you know, the one I was just laid on rather than not doing it and and in the, you know, on those little technicalities it, I was fired after six years, and I panicked for an hour, literally for one hour. And then I sat there and I said to myself, I can take another middle management job ever again. I'm so so so so what does that mean? And the answer is, well, I guess I'm finally going into private practice, which is something which is a step that just, you know, the uncertainty, the health insurance and taking things into my own hands, a step that I had really resisted for years and years and years, I thought I was going to be kind of just like, life of climbing the executive ladder, you know, in some nonprofit setting, but I was done, I could not do this again. And after, you know, after that hour, I just completely shifted my focus towards starting a private practice.
Kathryn Esquer 26:33
In the course of an hour, you went from employed to unemployed, to panicked, to it sounds like excited and motivated for this private practice.
Jorge Fernandez 26:43
Yes, um, within a month, I had office space. I had hired somebody to do my credentialing. I, you know, I had a name for my LLC, I, you know, and I was often running, you know, basically spending about two months building furniture like me, me and my girlfriend, that there building furniture in my office and not getting paid, just getting the office ready. And it was less than three months to the date that I lost my job where I was officially open for business. Wow. Like, and, and I've never looked back, you know, it's been three and a half years, I have an incredibly successful practice. I am happier than I've ever been in my career, you know, when I sat when my first client in private practice and use the first full time clients I had had in about 14 years. And it was just like, do I know that I still know how to do this? And the answer was, yes, I know how to do it. And I know how to do it relatively well. And I've been incredibly happy. I am my own boss, I, you know, set the hours I want, I have been able to give back to younger therapists, I do offer clinical supervision as well. So I'm still able to give back again, it is the happiest and most successful and most respected I've ever felt in my career. So it's been it's been a real complete turnaround for me.
Allie Joy 28:35
Yeah, that's amazing. That's so special. And that's why I was so excited to have you tell your story to us and our listeners today. Because it is like this, almost like a crescendo of like, leading up to this big moment you get fired, which is like, like you said, your mouth just drops, you feel panicked, then it led to this amazing opportunity for you and how hopefully our listeners and other therapists can recognize through your story like, yes, things could get to this point, they might feel like you're stuck. You might feel like you know, your career is ending, but it might just be opening the other door for you. And it seems like again, like you're saying, really made you feel that much happier. And I will say obviously, I know you from the Connecticut community, you're a pillar in our therapists community here in Connecticut. Well, I mean it and I know you're always full, because I'm always asking you about any space. You know, the work you're doing is incredible. And you are changing things. I've known you through advocacy here in Connecticut for mental health needs, like you're doing amazing things. And I'm sure at that moment, though feeling fired. It's like that, like, oh my god, what am I doing? What am I going to do?
Jorge Fernandez 29:44
Yeah, that was the lowest. I carry the idea of interviewing the idea of sending out a resume and interviewing and just winding up in another nonprofit culture was terrifying. It's just I couldn't put myself through, there was just no way.
Kathryn Esquer 30:06
Jorge, I have a question. Because I know your experience is not the only one out there where someone feels burnt out, burning the candle at both ends, I'm like really feels to their core that this is not a good fit at this organization for them. However, they love the clinical work they're doing. They're connected to their clients or or supervisees. And so they stay at but they know it's it. They know, it's it's not good in terms of their energy in their their life, their quality of life, but they stay for the good work. And also I heard, you know, a little fear of making the jump. What's next? Not having a next plan?
Jorge Fernandez 30:50
Not having that steady paycheck? Yeah.
Kathryn Esquer 30:53
Yeah. Not having that steady paycheck and not knowing where it might come from next. What advice or what would you tell the clinicians out there who are in the who are in these situations like you were like you found yourself in? What would you tell them?
Jorge Fernandez 31:07
Don't ignore the signs. You know, don't ignore the signs. Don't stay quiet. You know, if you feel that there are things that your agency, your job, your group, practice, whatever, could be doing better to support you speak up. I also, one thing that's always been very inspirational for me, as somebody who lived in New York City for many years is there used to be an ad on the subway for monster or ,career builder, Indeed one of these things. And the ad said, when you're good, you're always looking. And that's always an and I have ignored that. And I ignored that when I was at this job. Because I have so much going on that just I didn't have the room to do that. But I think that always have an ear to other experiences, to what else is out there. Do not ever think And also, do not ever think that you are indispensable. Do not ever think that you have to stay somewhere for your clients, or your staff, like your clients are resilient, your staff is resilient. You know, I have left many jobs in my life and worried about my clients and then heard a month later that they're happy as can be with our new therapist. You know, um, so you know, so don't, don't ignore. Don't ignore the signs, advocate for yourself. But also, always keep in the air to what other opportunities are out there for you. Because you will always be more in demand than you think you are.
Kathryn Esquer 33:09
I just want to bottle that up and play that to myself in the morning. Right? I like the balanced. Way to go marketing team for Monster or Indeed. Yeah, that's incredible. That's stuck with you all those years. I like I could not echo that more that you are probably better than you think you are. But also you're not as special as you think you are in terms of being replaceable. I know, I have felt that way in similar jobs where I just can't leave this client. They need me. They don't need me and they shouldn't need me. Right. Someone else can also step it.
Jorge Fernandez 33:45
Exactly they need themselves. Mm hmm. Number one person they need.
Allie Joy 33:51
Yeah, it just brings up such a, like an important topic of burnout. Because I feel like this is so relevant to like, in any role, like while there were supervisors at agencies, in our own work, it's like, I feel like we always hear of like, take care of yourself, take care of yourself, right? Burnout is a thing. But then on the other side, it's like there's a greater need than ever for mental health. You need to you're not meeting your hours, your no shows or you know, if someone's monitoring your numbers, things like that. And I personally can say that I often feel conflicted between that because I in my head rationally know, like, yeah, I have to take care of myself and I do and I do self care. But then again, you see that other side of like push, push, push, push, push, what should we say to maybe new clinicians, people who are still in school or just anyone seasoned or not who's feeling burnt out any other thoughts? Again, you said it so well, but when thinking about the mixed messages we get, what else anything else?
Jorge Fernandez 34:42
We have I mean I also that we are off we have our limits, like last week, I you know, I scheduled 28 sessions in three and a half days and it was 26 kept sessions out of 28. And you know, I remember saying to my girlfriend at the time like this is the limit. This is as much as I can do without it really impacting me. Um, and like you said, Allie, I get, you know, I get requests from other therapists like two, three requests a week. Do you have openings? Do you have openings, to have openings? Sometimes, you know, sometimes I'll give in because there'll be something that's perfect fit for me. There's the I guess, I have to make something work. If a returning clients calls me and says, I want to come back. I can never say no, like, I just can't, I will make it work, somehow. But I can't be everything to everyone at all times. I have to be able to say no, I have to be able to go home and just, you know, function the rest of the day and know that they are you know, and know that there are others out there who can pick up the slack.
Allie Joy 36:03
Yeah, well said, know our limits. I like it. Yeah.
Kathryn Esquer 36:10
Well, Jorge, thank you so much for sharing your story I loved all the different paths. This has taken us down not only therapists burnout, but also the demands of middle management agencies and organizations. Knowing your fit, knowing what energizes you and what depletes you, taking risks, being replaceable, so many great themes. Just thank you so much for your vulnerability and sharing this the story because I know I know you're not the only one out there who has fallen asleep in meetings.
Allie Joy 36:46
And before we let you go, Jorge, where can people find you if they wanted to connect outside of the podcast?
Jorge Fernandez 36:51
Iam on Facebook at nuevo dia that's new day in Spanish amily wellness. I also my website is nuevodiafw.com and those are usually usually the two best ways to reach me. Definitely electronically more than phone. You know even though I'm a Gen Xer I've, I've taken you know, the habit of checking my phone as much as I used to for sure.
Allie Joy 37:31
Knowing your limits, right. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for sharing your story with us today.
Jorge Fernandez 37:38
Thank you both take care, okay.
Kathryn Esquer 37:41
And that's it. The OG bad therapists Allie and Kathryn are signing off for the week.
Allie Joy 37:47
Make sure to subscribe and leave us a review. We pick a few lucky five server viewers to shout out and invite for a 15 minute consultation with the both of us to talk about anything on your mind. From clinical work to podcasting we're game. Just make sure to leave us your name and location in the review.
Kathryn Esquer 38:03
And are you a bad therapist and want to join us on the show? Go to abadtherapist.com and tell us your story.
Allie Joy 38:12
Our podcast is produced and edited by my amazing husband Austin joy. He also created the music for our intro and outro you can find this song along with many others on any music platform under the artist air for effect. And if you're about therapist starting your own podcast, contact Austin for his full suite of podcast and sound production services. You can find him on Instagram at air for effect.
Kathryn Esquer 38:36
And don't forget, we're all bad therapists.