Flirting with Disaster
Season 1, Episode 7
Therapy is intimate, right? Well, what happens when therapy gets too intimate? John Pajarillaga shares his reaction and response to clients overtly flirting with him, as well as his experiences working with clients in public settings. Allie also shares her experiences about the dynamic of doing therapy in homes and in the community.
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Episode Transcript - Flirting with Disaster
Allie Joy 01:13
Hey, Kathryn, what do you think is one of the most challenging topics to talk about in the therapy room?
Kathryn Esquer 01:21
I'm gonna give a guess at money and cancellation fees.
Allie Joy 01:27
Valid, but that's not what I was thinking, try again.
Kathryn Esquer 01:31
Okay, try again. Um, what about...
Allie Joy 01:34
No one wants to talk about it.
Kathryn Esquer 01:36
I know, attraction, the level of intimacy therapy requires.
Allie Joy 01:42
Yes, that's what I was thinking. And what we're going to be hearing about today from our guest, John, he's going to be sharing with us about how it feels and how we navigate and address when clients experience attraction towards us, as therapists how we navigate that and just how it feels because it's a sticky one.
Kathryn Esquer 02:00
Yeah, that has absolutely happened to me. I would be, I would be shocked if it hasn't, for any of us practicing for several years, I'd be shocked if it hasn't happened to you yet at all. It's so it's so common. But you're right, we don't talk about it.
Allie Joy 02:18
And it makes sense. Again, it's it's very tricky to talk about. But hopefully our conversation today can help normalize it a little bit more destigmatize it and talk about it. Because it does happen. I share a little bit, you know, when we talk to John, about how I used to work in the community in like a city, and I was going into homes, and I had this happen quite a few times. And it was very uncomfortable for me, how you navigate holding a therapeutic alliance, setting boundaries, navigating your own safety and feelings of comfort, navigating how supervisors respond to it. And again, just how you work with the client. So it's going to be a good conversation. And again, hopefully, we can just normalize this a little bit more.
Kathryn Esquer 03:00
Yeah, there's so much to talk about with this. Looking forward to it. And just a reminder, for everyone listening that these episodes are for entertainment purposes only. They are not a substitute for individual therapy, or for consultation or ethical guidance.
Allie Joy 03:15
All right, this is episode number seven of Am I Bad Therapist? Let's get into it.
Kathryn Esquer 03:24
Hey, John, welcome to the podcast.
John Pajarillaga 03:27
Hi, thanks for having me.
Kathryn Esquer 03:28
Absolutely. So before we get into why you're a bad therapist, or may or may not be a bad therapist, tell us a little bit about yourself, your practice your your work in the mental health field.
John Pajarillaga 03:43
Sure, I started working in mental health probably eight years ago, I was actually a bachelor's level clinician at a community health mental health agency. And I did a lot of interesting work when I was there. It was part case management, part clinician slash therapists. It really was. I was like a jack of all trades. And so I'd go into the community and meet with my clients there. Sometimes I was in their homes, sometimes I would take them to doctor's appointments. Sometimes I'd take grocery store, grocery shopping, and so I did a lot of different things. But by nature of the job itself, we also had a lot of therapeutic conversations, because you can't help it. You can't avoid that. I mean, if you're sitting in a doctor's office for two or three hours, you're going to talk about stuff. And so that was kind of my formative experience in itself. But now I just do therapy. I've been doing it for about two years. I work at a group practice and I love it. I do couples and individual therapy.
Kathryn Esquer 04:47
What an amazing start in the mental health fields that really gave you your first taste, huh?
John Pajarillaga 04:51
Yeah, it did. And you know what, it was the best training I got because I started grad school after working there for few years and by the time I was in grad school, grad school felt easy, because I'd already seen a lot of things just through my job.
Kathryn Esquer 05:06
Now, just a sidebar, before we get in to your situation, I can absolutely relate to that I actually went to grad school right out of undergrad, and the my classmates, my cohort members who went and worked either in a master's degree or in a bachelor's level and then went back to get their doctorate or their degrees. They came in with so much like, like they had, they had a really good foundation, and I was just trying to get my footwork down. So that was a really great experience. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah.
Allie Joy 05:38
Well, so tell us what is the story that you would like to tell us today of why you felt like you were about therapist?
John Pajarillaga 05:44
Oh, well, here goes. So back in the day, when I was doing this community mental health work, I had, I would often have clients who I can tell they were attracted to me, they had a crush on me. And you know, it's very easy to, to not reject, but turned down to the, I don't know flirtations of a 60 year old woman. Because I had a lot of senior citizen clients, the age range that I worked with was 18 to 70, I think was the oldest person. But you know, sometimes I would get younger clients, who in their 20s, who would flirt with me. And I felt very uncomfortable when those things would happen. Because the work I was doing, again, it was in a therapist office, it was in the community, sometimes this was in my car, we're going to an appointment, or we're sitting at McDonald's or Starbucks kind of just, you know, talking about how things are going with their clinical or the the treatment, and then they would just flirt. And I would immediately, well, I think I played it off. You know, I kept it professional, but I always felt awkward and weird about it. And I would go to my clinical supervisor like, can I, I just feel really strange. This just happened, how do I deal with this? How do I, how do I manage it? And I did not want to continue working with them. And so my well, that's the situation, dealing with clients who are attracted to me as a clinician, and I don't know if brought up all sorts of things. Yeah.
Kathryn Esquer 07:28
I have a follow up question. How did they flirt with you? What did they do?
John Pajarillaga 07:35
Sometimes they would, you know, they would like get handy. Or like they put their hand. Right? Yeah, you know, your your eyebrows are raised. Your eyebrows are raising, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I feel so uncomfortable. Now, most of my co workers and colleagues are women, and I'm the guy and it just so I'm not like, I know, my co workers were used to this kind of stuff. So they had more experience manage navigating it, but for me, I was like, Oh my gosh, this person is hitting on me right now. So sometimes it was verbal, sometimes it was just, they were a little bit more playful physically, like, they would just I don't know, like, touch me on the shoulder or like, on my hand or, or on my arm. As we're sitting at the table. I'm like, immediately uncomfortable. So, I mean, to give you an idea, that's what would happen.
Kathryn Esquer 08:25
Oh, absolutely. And I another sidebar story. I remember like being out in a community with them as a male female duo, perhaps around the same ages. I wonder, were there a lot of assumptions about your client and you as a couple?
John Pajarillaga 08:40
Oh my gosh, yes. That is, that happened more than the several occasions where that would happen. And I, of course, my mind doesn't go there. I'm not thinking about that. But my clients would say, oh, like they're gonna think we're a couple. And again, feeling awkward, how do I respond to this? And I try to shut it down. Yeah, or just ignore it. Because it's, I don't want to see the scene in that way. I don't want them thinking about me in that way. I obviously I don't have any control over that. But it just put me in a very strange position.
Allie Joy 09:16
Yeah, well, I feel like too the community mental health, like really adds to it. I was sharing earlier with you guys before we started recording, I started my career in community mental health. So I was going into home schools, sometimes outside, like, wherever we could meet. And it adds that extra level where it's very confusing of how to do it because even like when I would go into people's homes, you know, I was working in a city so you know, a lot of close neighbors they were like, Oh, who you're here to see what's going on. What are you doing? I see you here once a week kind of thing. And you're like, I don't like I'm just here nice to see oh, you know, because you can't break HIPAA at the same time, so it's like a double whammy. And then I feel like it also, in my opinion, adds to like a variable of that therapeutic relationship, right, because when someone comes into your office, I think, for myself, at least it feels easier to keep boundaries and talk about relationships and all of that. But when you're in someone's home, or they're in your car, it changes the relationship 100%, in my opinion, so I think it just adds that extra piece of it being very complicated.
John Pajarillaga 10:22
Yes, definitely. That was the case. I mean, like I said, I would take people to doctor's appointments, I was privy to their medical history, I would take people grocery shopping, I helped some of my clients learn how to budget their money. So we would talk about money. So every aspect of their life, they would share with me and I was privy to. And so it made that, those boundaries of, you know, clinician/client, they had to be clear. And I had to regularly talk to my clients about those things. Okay, I know that we're sitting here at McDonald's talking about how your treatments going, but we're not friends. Because they would start to develop closeness, they would feel close to me, some of these clients, I worked with them for three years. And so I became privy to pretty much every aspect of their life. Now, when they start talking about their sex lives, I'm like, I don't hear that. I mean, I didn't say that. But if it was clinically appropriate, then sure, you know, let them talk about it. But I don't know,just boundaries.
Kathryn Esquer 11:27
So the situation we're describing, is your work as a bachelor's level clinician going out into the community and helping the clients. I'm curious, did clients continuing to flirt with you? Did that happen in the therapy room over the past couple of years, as you've been a therapist too?
John Pajarillaga 11:46
You know, what, as a therapist it is actually much easier to navigate all of this, because I have, I mean, I've only it's only ever happened maybe once since I started just solely doing therapy. And so it's way easier, I think, because I was so involved in a part of my clients lives when I was at that mental health agency. It just blurred the lines. And so they felt more free and comfortable to kind of go there. And so I don't know if here in there as a therapist. Now, if I sense that a client is attracted to me, I don't know. I mean, we might have a conversation about it, we or I might just ignore it. But if it becomes very clear, it's starting to get in the way of our work together. I mean, I would bring it up, I would address it. But I would still feel weird going there. Because it's such a weird topic.
Allie Joy 12:45
It is. But I'm so glad that you are bringing it to the podcast, because this is our goal, right of what we're trying to do. We're trying to help destigmatize, and just normalize these experiences that we face because we say it all the time, like we are humans. Yes, we're therapists. And the work we do is important. But we make mistakes, we get put into uncomfortable situations. And nobody really talks about it. So truly, thank you for talking about this topic that's really hard to talk about. But you are not alone. I'm so sure that so many listeners will be so happy that you're willing to talk about this with us. And hopefully, again just open those doors for other people to talk about it so we can feel more comfortable with how we handle it and how we deal with it.
John Pajarillaga 13:26
Well, yeah, you're very welcome. Because I definitely did not get this kind of like education when I was in school. So I figured we should talk about it. Because this stuff happens all the time.
Kathryn Esquer 13:35
It does, it does the I say this all the time. We use our humaneness in our work, right. And so we show up as authentic humans in the therapy room. And, you know, I don't think there's anything I want to be clear that there's nothing wrong with feeling attracted to your therapist. And it does make us uncomfortable at times. But that's part of what we do. And we need to work through that and use that information. And I love how you're able to now clinically bring that into the clinical room. I've done it multiple times where you know, kind of calling out the attraction or or bringing to attention, the playfulness, or the, I haven't really experienced extra touches, but you know, calling that out and using that clinically, I think is so important, and personally has led to deeper therapeutic work with some of my clients.
John Pajarillaga 14:30
Yeah, well, definitely the touches part does not happen as a therapist.
Kathryn Esquer 14:35
I'm trying to picture like how that would work. And I'm like, yeah, that'd be very clear if that were happening.
John Pajarillaga 14:40
Yes, nobody is touching me. They are on the other side or the room on the couch and I'm on my side.
Kathryn Esquer 14:47
You know, interesting. I think about this now, I did have a playful touch once. It was with a male client and he playfully I had my legs crossed. He was sitting across from me and he playfully kicked my shoe. So that's something. Right?
John Pajarillaga 15:03
Yeah. Yeah. Like hmm, if that happened to me. I'd be like, I think this person is flirting with me.
Kathryn Esquer 15:10
I think it was. Yeah. Without getting into the case. It was much broader context. But anyway, I think that this, I also appreciate that you are a male talking about, talking about females or other men flirting with you in the clinical relationship. I, I mean, it happens, I would say happens to females as well. Absolutely. If not more so.
John Pajarillaga 15:46
Well, I think that brings up the great point, and like the question of like, what does go through your head when this is happening? Like, I can speak for myself, when this has happened. It I feel like I get pulled out of being present, unfortunately, because I'm not necessarily being present and listening to everything else. I'm like, in my head, like, Oh, was it this? Wasn't that what do I say? What do I do? It's like these racing thoughts. And I feel like, again, personally, it feels like it pulls me out of the session a bit, because I'm just trying to go through my thoughts. So what comes to mind for you? What's that dialogue? Like, in your mind? What are you asking yourself? It's like, oh, my gosh, is this happening right now? That's probably the first time i Oh, my gosh, I think this is happening. I think they are seriously crushing on me, because they're very, you know, just, I'm analyzing the situation. And you're right, Allie, it did pull me out of the moment. And after that initial shock of this just happened, I think my mind immediately went to, not liability but you know, like the legalities of things. I'm like, I don't want to be in this situation. This is so uncomfortable. Like, I don't want to be accused of anything I don't want like, that's where my mind goes. At the agency, they they call it CYA, cover your ass. So I did not want to be put in that kind of situation. Because it that's just horrible of I don't. Anyway, that's probably next where my mind went after the initial shock. And then after that, I probably went to okay, I need to talk to somebody about this. How do I deal with this? How do I even talk about this with someone? Because I'm like, okay, this person is flirting with me. I was like, do I need to keep working with them? Long term? Because I feel uncomfortable. And if you know that, I can see this happening again, where they're flirting or making comments or whatnot. And so I think that's probably where my mind went. Next problem solving mode. How do I deal with a situation? And or how do I get out? When it comes up again, in the future?
Kathryn Esquer 19:02
It sounds like you wanted to get out.
John Pajarillaga 19:04
Yeah, totally.
Allie Joy 19:07
Did your supervisors allow that? Or did they push you to keep working with the clients?
John Pajarillaga 19:11
You know, what I thankfully had great supervisors. And I was also part of a team. And so it was a team of us clinicians. It was my team had a bachelor, bachelor's level and Master's level clinicians. And so, you know, once I voiced my concerns, my supervisor, we just kind of talked it through and made a plan. You know, I didn't have to be the person meeting with this client who had a crush on me. Because one thing I appreciate about my supervisor is that she wanted to make sure that I felt comfortable that I wasn't putting myself in a compromise, not even a compromise, was just an uncomfortable position. Which I really, really liked. That really helps. And that put me more at ease and some Times, other my coworkers could not meet with with a client. And so in those situations, I would, I could meet with the client, but maybe I would meet with them in the office instead of in the, in their home. And if I had to meet with him in the community then meet with him in a more public space, like a McDonald's or a coffee shop, someplace where, you know, it's, I would feel more comfortable. I think that was a big part of what she told me, it's like, I want to make sure you're comfortable. And you know, if it got really bad. It's, you know, maybe I could, the client could meet me at that public location, and I would meet them there separately, that way, they're not driving in my car. So that helps too.
Allie Joy 20:45
I'm gonna say...
Kathryn Esquer 20:45
Allie Joy 20:46
Yeah!
John Pajarillaga 20:47
Great boundaries.
Allie Joy 20:48
That's awesome. I was going to say I'm a little envious. I'm not gonna lie. I was said earlier, I was working fresh out of grad school, as a therapist in the community, and I was going into homes. And when you work in agencies, they often say you have to work with everybody, no matter the age, the diagnosis, things like that. And I was, I had a few older male clients who I was going into their homes, things got very uncomfortable, where they were making advances towards me and I was in their homes, I went back to supervision, fresh out of grad school, like literally, I don't have a clue in the world was going on. I said, I was uncomfortable. And at that time, my supervisor was like, well set the boundary and go back. And I was like, that feels really bad. Really bad. So I'm really happy that your supervisor at least kind of validated not that they didn't validate me. And like I understand we do have to push through challenges as therapists. But when your safety is at concern, or again, like these uncomfortable situations, I always felt like, I don't think that I should be looking back necessarily.
John Pajarillaga 21:53
Yeah, and it's, you know, the agency or the attitude, the was not systematic, but institutional mindset, or the attitude makes a big difference. Because I faced a similar situation in a different agency. And it was not as supportive, and I didn't have as many, well I didn't have co workers. It was just me working there. And, you know, I had one manager, and so I had to deal with the situation. And you know, that it was it was hard, then too, and I made me, it made me wish that what made me miss the agency I previously left behind because of the difference in support and the difference in attitude between agencies.
Allie Joy 22:42
Yeah, that makes such a difference. Oh, my gosh. So we've talked about having the situation's right, how we're feeling all of that. I'm curious, do you have any examples of how you set boundaries with people? Like if you did continue to work with them? Or how you handled it? Like, was it like the first time you notice this you address it? Or do you subtly? Like, do you have a three strikes kind of thing that then you talk about it? What was like your actual responses, if you can think of them?
John Pajarillaga 23:07
Sure. Let's see, I think the first time it ever happened, I didn't address it right away, because I didn't know how to or I wasn't sure how to. And so I consulted with my supervisor kind of talked it through. And then when it happened, the next time, I was better prepared. I talked about boundaries, like, Hey, I get the feeling that I don't know, this feels like too much like flirting. This doesn't make me I feel uncomfortable with this. I want you to stop. And you know, those kinds of conversations. And most clients were respectful and are apologetic, and so they definitely got the signal. So that kind of that helps. Also, I think, after the first initial incident, I got better at handling it. And I just got better of addressing those situations when they came up. I think earlier before we were recording it, or maybe it was when we were recording I told you guys about how at a client call me his best friend, just because we had been working for so long together. I've been so involved in his life. And I had to tell him, Hey, I know that you you trust me, you and you see me a lot. Just to give you an idea. Some of these clients, I was seeing two to three times a week. And I was spending as little as 15 minutes to as many as three or four hours with them per session, depending on whatever I was doing with them. And so just to give you an idea of how much they open up to me and how much I became part of their lives, and my coworkers, it was the same thing for them. And so when my client said hey, you know, you're my best friend. By then I was able to say hey, you know what? I'm your case manager. I'm not your est friend. So I know you, you trust me. I know I'm part of your life. But what I'm doing is this is my job. And so, you know, that made him sad. But he got over, it was okay. Like he understood. And I had to have that conversation again with him multiple times. And you know, that that's what a male client, but I'd have those conversations with some of my female clients too. Some of the ones that became attracted to me or, you know, I felt like they they were and so they didn't always like that. They got defensive and said, No, no, no, what. And what I appreciated was that my supervisor allowed me to use her as a scapegoat in the sense of like, just just say, it's like policy or protocol and like, whatever and like, perfect, I will use that as an excuse. Yeah. Which I mean, most of the times, I didn't have to use that excuse, it was enough to just say, hey, this, this is not appropriate, knock it off.
Kathryn Esquer 26:03
Yeah, two things really stand out to me. First is that as a bachelor's level clinician, you were put into some pretty tricky situations that are even difficult to manage, or to navigate as a, you know, masters or doctoral level trained clinicians. So you are really, you know, in my perspective, thrown in the deep end into how to handle you know, rapport building, and managing ruptures and setting interpersonal boundaries, wow. Like out in public and driving in cars. And I can really, really respect the fact that you were doing this all with a bachelor's level education without the advanced training that you now have.
John Pajarillaga 26:45
In hindsight, I tell people, one year, it's a little bit like dog years. So one year of working at a community mental health agency is the equivalent of two to three years. Same thing, individual or group practice.
Allie Joy 26:57
Yeah. 100%. I agree with you.
John Pajarillaga 27:02
Yeah, and I mean, at this point, I'm eight years into being a clinician, I have literally seen hundreds of clients done 1000s of hours of, you know, just direct service kind of work. And I don't know nothing really. I don't say nothing phases me, but it does nothing shocks me anymore.
Kathryn Esquer 27:20
Yeah, yeah. The second thing that stood out to me was something you said earlier, which was that your female colleagues or peers knew how to handle these situations, because they've been in them so often. And I think that that really does highlight the difference of genders in the clinical world.
John Pajarillaga 27:37
Yes, I agree. And I mean, just in our society, right? Yeah. Women get hit on all the time, walk down the street, they get hit on, and I had never been put in that position as a straight man. And here I was at my job. And I did not know how to handle initially, I didn't know how to handle it. And it was like, Oh, my gosh, this is what women go through on a daily basis. And it just flipped the, you know, the the roles, the the dynamics for me. Yeah.
Kathryn Esquer 28:14
I wonder for you now, having gone through this kind of trial by fire experience as a bachelor's level clinician, and you said, after the first instance, you felt more comfortable handling it. So it sounds like experience navigating the situations helped. But to go into graduate school, then add any other tools to your toolbox, or change how you approach how this shows up in the therapy room? Or is it really that experiences that that really shaped how you manage it?
John Pajarillaga 28:43
You know, I had a great grad program, but it was definitely the experiences that prepared me more for the work because, like you said, trial by fire. I faced so many situations that later on when I was in grad school, they didn't have they didn't teach us on. And I tell people who want to be counselors, you know, once you get your bachelor's, go work somewhere, community mental health, get your feet wet, and get some experience because when you're ready to go to grad school, you will be so prepared. And, you know, I wish they had done more to I think with grad school, sometimes they focus so much on the theories of the fields that they don't do. They don't spend enough time on the practical application. And what it looks like to actually do this work.
Allie Joy 29:42
I agree. I was thinking the same thing in my head actually like how it can be so theory based, which is important. Of course, we have to know those things. But I agree. I wish you know we did dive into the practicalities, although I will say for myself. Things look so different in the classroom than they do like even if I had learned it. I don't know how much that would have helped me maybe it would have been good to just talk about it. So it wasn't like, feeling super alone or foreign or scary. But I do wish we talked more.
John Pajarillaga 30:10
Yeah, and one reason why I just wanted to talk about this topic is because I think just talking about it helps. I never heard any kind of training or anything about how to deal with when your client is attracted to you. Like, how do you how do you handle it's gonna happen?
Kathryn Esquer 30:28
Yes, it is. Absolutely.
Allie Joy 30:32
So what would you say then? Oh, sorry Kathryn. Was that where you're gonna add?
Kathryn Esquer 30:35
I'm just gonna say the same question.
Allie Joy 30:37
Well, perfect segue into what would you say to someone dealing with this for the first time? What advice would you give them?
John Pajarillaga 30:44
Well, good luck. No, no. I wouldn't, I would tell them, hey, you know what this happens. This happens, especially if the students a woman, it's gonna happen if she interacts with well gender doesn;t matter, it's gonna happen in general, I mean, it happened to me. And so, you know, try not to freak out. You're gonna freak out on the inside, that's okay. Trying to not show it in your face, or body language. And then, if you feel uncomfortable, try to get yourself out of that situation, if you can, you know, you prioritize your, your, your safety and your level of comfort, I think, is what I would tell them. Because I think because of our profession, we are geared towards accommodating our clients. And so we prioritize their needs and their level of comfort over our own. And I think this is one of those situations when it's appropriate to prioritize my needs and my level of comfort. And so I would say something like that to them. And I would definitely encourage them to talk to their supervisor about or to consult with their colleagues, that way, they can learn how other people handle those situations, because that helps a lot.
Kathryn Esquer 32:07
I also would have to add on there that and learn more about their own discomfort, right? Yes. That if safety is there? What is your discomfort about how can you use that discomfort clinically, in your clinical work? Right. I go back to your situation with the with a client who saw you as a best friend, what does that say about their clinical presentation and potential treatment goals? Right? How can you use that info to inform your work if you are safe and comfortable doing so obviously. But absolutely, that peer support and supervisory support is, it's how you learn about these things. Right? It talking about it? Is is how you learn? Yeah,
John Pajarillaga 32:50
I agree. And I think too, when I was in that situation, and made me reflect on why I felt so uncomfortable. And so I like what you said, Kathryn, just like reflecting on it. Because I mean, I did reflect on it. And that's when I realized, you know, I've never been hit on. This is what it must feel like for women every single day, walking down the street. And it made me so much more empathetic for my coworkers. It made me so much more, not that I needed to come to the defense, but like I was more on their side I was I advocated for those kinds of things. Because when I worked at that agency, I was there for three and a half, four years, and there was a shift in how they did things. And later on, in my term, they started to prioritize clinicians, safety and their needs and their comfort more way more than when I first started working there. And I'm glad they did. Because this kind of work is hard. And people burn out if they don't feel comfortable. I mean, they don't want to put themselves in, in compromising situations.
Kathryn Esquer 34:05
It's amazing that you got to see that transformation too. And that your experiences were able to, to shift the environment and the prioritization.
Allie Joy 34:13
And hopefully, it continues to shift because I think that this does, like we're saying, it does happen. And even for like, if a client happens to stumble upon this podcast, you're listening to this, like it's natural, like our clients are revealing some parts of themselves to us that maybe they never have to anyone before. It's a very, like vulnerable relationships. So it would make sense that you might feel attracted to your provider clinician, things like that. And that happens, but we just have to discuss it set the boundaries and recognize it. So hopefully clients again, if they happen to hear this just can also feel validated. Like yes, that can happen. If you're feeling that way. That's normal. It makes so much sense. But we just have to bring it back to why are we feeling this way? What is the foundation of the relationship and how can we move forward from it or is it impacting the therapeutic relationship too much so hopefully, just as agencies, you know, continue to hopefully grow and set you know these policies and things into place we can just again normalize it so that clients feel heard and seen, but we do as clinicians too.
Kathryn Esquer 35:14
Beautifully put.
John Pajarillaga 35:15
Yes, I agree. Thank you for having me.
Allie Joy 35:22
And if John, if anyone wants to connect with you outside of the podcast, where can they find you if you'd like to share?
John Pajarillaga 35:27
Sure I have a website. It's therapywithjohn.com.
Allie Joy 35:32
Such a good website.
Kathryn Esquer 35:34
That's a great domain.
John Pajarillaga 35:36
Nice and simple. I couldn't get the Instagram handle for that though. So someone else had that so I had to come up with a different one. My Instagram is paja.the.therapist.
Allie Joy 35:51
Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for being with us today talking about this topic. That's not easy to talk about it. We appreciate you and thank you again.
John Pajarillaga 35:59
Thanks for having me.