18. Making Money as a Bad Therapist
Season 1, Episode 18
Multiple revenue streams, anyone? Allie and Kathryn share their experiences and strategies for how to earn an income outside of the therapy room, as well as the ethics surrounding it all.
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Episode Transcript - Making Money as a Bad Therapist
Kathryn Esquer 00:02
Okay. So, Allie and I are going to do something a little bit different for this week's episode of Am I a bad therapist?
Allie Joy 01:23
Yeah, Kathryn and I were talking and we got into a really good conversation that we decided we wanted to have on the podcast. So we, I have been seeing online, a lot of talk about therapists trying to diversify what they're doing and like multiple income and revenue streams, and just how our one-to-one client work can be really draining at times. So we're going to talk about how we both have made that happen in our careers and our professional lives. And just kind of go through it all.
Kathryn Esquer 01:54
And just a friendly reminder, before we get into it, that this is not a substitute for clinical consultation, ethical guidance, or therapy itself. And these episodes are just for entertainment purposes.
Allie Joy 02:08
All right, well, this is episode number 18. Am I a bad therapist? Let's get into it.
Kathryn Esquer 02:14
So I think this all started, at least for me, this idea of multiple revenue streams. As a therapist, I'm actually now that I think about it, I've always had multiple revenue streams as a therapist. Some of you know, my background, I was I went to school to for my doctorate of clinical psychology, and my MBA and I went into organizational leadership development. So immediately after graduate school, and so before going back to the clinical world, I've always kept like, my toe in the organizational and leadership development field. So I've been doing executive coaching on the side, since before I got my license, right? Because it was something I was trained in and always did. So now that I see that I've always had a multiple revenue stream outside of the one-to-one client work client or patient work. So that goes like, beyond the one-to-one coaching, or the one-to-one therapy. You know, I think that first came to into my head right around the pandemic, when this idea of therapists of Instagram really kind of took off and took on a life of its own. When did you first contemplate or think about multiple revenue streams outside a one-to-one work Alliee?
Allie Joy 03:32
Yeah, well, I'm very similar. So my whole life I think, since I've been working since I was like 15 years old has consisted of multiple jobs. I think I'm the type of person I recognized at a pretty young age that like doing one thing all the time, for my brain just gets like, kind of tedious. So I have always had multiple jobs that worked in restaurants for a long time. I owned a clothing business for a long time, which was really fun. I've done so many different things at the same time, because that's how my brain feels comfortable. So it felt natural to translate that into my professional career once I graduated from grad school. And it took me a little bit to figure out how to do that clinically. So I worked in community mental health, which I've shared before, but that kind of feels like 10 different jobs. That lasted for two years, although I started super being supervisor at that agency towards the end. So that was kind of a mix of things. And then I was working in schools, and I started my private practice part time. So that was a multiple revenue stream. And then when I got into private practice for myself, I did it for probably maybe like almost a year like building the office and everything. And then I got back to that familiar feeling of like, I need something else. So I think after I had settled into my private practice, then I decided that I wanted to introduce you know, different revenue streams and different options as a therapist and I didn't really know where to start right away.
Kathryn Esquer 04:59
I think that that's a really common experience where you're first dipping your toe into multiple revenue streams, is that continuing to work for a practice or an agency and taking on your own private practice, right? And then when you make the leap to full time, then it's like, well, now I'm doing this full time. What's my next little endeavor? Like it's almost like a little taste of, of entrepreneurship that you a lot of us don't want to let go of. We want to keep going. And I love that I love that feeling. And I can relate so much to what you said about your brain feels comfortable doing multiple things. I think back to graduate school when I was juggling, part time work, internship, PsyD classes and MBA classes, I felt I was like at my peak, I loved it. I love switching grades, I love switching roles. And there was something about when I went back and did my postdoc where I was literally at a college counseling center 40 hours a week, I was just like, so dead and drained. And it just wasn't for me. And I wonder how much of this now that we're talking about it? Is this this byproduct of? How long ago did the side hustle culture come out? That came out a while ago, right? Like
Allie Joy 06:06
10-15 years ago? Probably. Yeah.
Kathryn Esquer 06:09
So I wonder how much of that is us being kind of going to college or going to graduate school with this side hustle culture mentality where lots it's normalized now not to have one one way of earning income. And it's part of the economy now that there is this huge side hustle culture, where therapists are now being able to do multiple things, using their unique skill sets. That kind of diversify their tasks, diversify their income, diversify their I don't know, like time I love it.
Allie Joy 06:44
Oh, I was gonna say, I think there's a benefit too because I agree with that, like the whole side culture, hustle mentality. But I think especially for our work, as therapists, like I love my one to one client work, but it is really, really draining. And doing that like full time, like having for me, like I'd say over like 28 clients. I just can't do it mentally. And I recognized for me that not only did I like having multiple sources of income, like financially, I think I noticed mentally, I needed to switch up from that one to one work, because of it being so draining and like leading me to feeling burnt out quicker. So I feel like it's a big combination for me of things. And I feel like I've heard a lot of other therapists say similar things of like, yeah, of course, we want multiple revenue streams, sources of income. That's amazing. But then extra benefit, it could potentially, hopefully, not burn us out so fast. Yeah, and increase
Kathryn Esquer 07:39
Yeah, and increase the quality of our work. Yeah, like, I absolutely think that my patients and I work in the medical setting, we use the term patients, patients are probably getting a better therapist than I was when I was seeing eight patients a day, five days a week, right? Yeah. Because I'm able to diversify what I do throughout my week that it allows me to really show up in a big way for them in a really present connected way that I find the work more rewarding. And I would maybe there should be a study out there someone should do their dissertation on patient satisfaction.
Allie Joy 08:18
That therapist research study.
Kathryn Esquer 08:20
Yeah, I love that. And speaking of bad therapists, like I really can remember when I first launched the teletherapist network, I was so private about it, I did, I'm still not really fond of having my face out there. And a lot of things like this podcast is a big push for me. But I was really embarrassed. And I didn't want to be a therapist of Instagram, because I thought it meant I was a less quality therapist or that I was I was selling out or that I was not committed to high clinical standards. Like I felt like it was too pop culturey and not not not substance enough. And so starting with the telenetwork, I've really struggled lately with it. Am I going to be perceived as a bad therapist? Am I going to be perceived because I'm stepping out of the box. And starting a network for therapists and diversifying my revenue streams and helping other therapists do the same thing and come together on this on this new path that we can create for ourselves in the in as therapists am I going to be looked as as less than in that stuff in my idea of like the staunch clinical community? Right? Did you ever go through that kind of imposter syndrome that I encountered when I started the network?
Allie Joy 09:36
Yes, I definitely have. So I am. Let's see, I think I'm about eight years into my career like post grad. And I've been working in mental health like even in undergrad doing appropriate bachelor levels work. But when I started to do supervision, I 1,000,000% had so much impostor syndrome and I have a separate business of this idea. I've created it, I've kind of talked about it a bit on the podcast. I know we have some ads mixed in, but I do creative clinical consultation and supervision, and I love talking about it. But I had so much impostor syndrome of like, are art therapists going to look at me and be like, you shouldn't be doing this. Because, you know, we're trained and all of these things. And I really try to approach talking about creativity, in like an ethical way. And I like to think, hopefully, that I am spreading the message even more so about what is appropriate for terminology, sharing that education with providers, because a lot of providers don't know they can't say that they do art therapy, if they're not trained. And so I like to think that not only am I supporting clinicians in being creative, but in an ethical way and sharing the knowledge, but I had so much fear. I just shared the idea with quite a few art therapists before I like launched it officially of like, Does this sound okay to you? What thoughts go through your mind as an art therapist of like me sharing creativity, like strategies and knowledge with non art therapists. And even after getting feedback, I was so scared of what it would look like online, I really was like, Oh my gosh, I'm a bad therapist.
Kathryn Esquer 11:14
I think that was the biggest one of my like that fear of others perceptions of Am I a bad therapist? Am I Am I a bad psychologist? Am I more of instead of bad, I would say am I less than psychologists that I am quote unquote resorting to multiple streams, when really it was a choice that I wanted to make that was healthy for me and my life, work life balance, like that was a healthy thing for me to do. And that perception of are people going to look at me and think I'm a bad therapist was probably the biggest hurdle. And it's still a common thought that I have to work through. Weekly, I would say I'm showing up in in in a public way. It's hard. It's hard. Do you still think that? Do you still worry about that?
Allie Joy 11:58
I do. Yeah, I struggle like so I know, social media is a very powerful tool for us to get ourselves out there, what we do share knowledge. But personally, I'm very resistant to like social media, I like kind of having my life be private, and not in like a bad way. But just I like keeping it to my real life experiences. I'm not a huge, like social media person, in my personal life. So I really get stuck on the fence of like, not only the time that it takes, but putting it out there, like putting myself out there. It's about my professional, you know, things, but it still feels so personal. That I definitely regularly question like, What am I doing? Even like, you know, I love like the silly little like tiktok trends or things like that. And sometimes someone will send it to me be like, oh, you should do this. And then I'll start to do it. I'm like, no, no, no, I can't do this. I can't do that. It just feels inauthentic or doesn't feel genuine to me. And then it's just like that, what am I doing?
Kathryn Esquer 13:00
So this is super, I have so many thoughts about this, because I'm like, and then here we are on a podcast and talking and sharing way more information about ourselves than then we probably would ever share on social media, just natural conversation. So then I just want to like not get into it now. But I'm like hmm wonder why we're able to show up on a podcast and on social media. Um, but I also do want to say that I mean, I think we both admittedly, social media and showing up as a public therapist does not come easily to us. Because of this fear of being perceived as a less than or bad therapist. And I in no way do I want this to be interpreted as we believe or we think that those therapists who easily or or just visibly show up on social media or in the public eye are bad therapists that is now Oh, my God, we're just saying.
Allie Joy 13:49
I look at them. And I'm like, queen, yes king, yes. Like I love it. Like, I love seeing what other people are doing so much. And it inspires me. And I completely agree. I'm glad you said that. Because I don't look at it that way at all. But for myself, it feels so different. Of course, we're our harshest critics.
Kathryn Esquer 14:07
And I wonder if some of the like the big names that show up like I'm thinking that truth doctor and network member Carolyn Rubinstein. Like I wonder if, if they like it, I wonder if they have those self doubts of I wonder how people are perceiving me a bad therapist or not, or a lesson in the public eye? And maybe I'll ask Carolyn, that?
Allie Joy 14:27
Yeah, definitely. Well, I'm curious Kathryn and I don't even know if I know this for you have all of your different things that you do. I know a lot of them. I was wondering if we could share, you know, kind of how we both have chosen to diversify what we do clinically.
Kathryn Esquer 14:42
I think that's a great question. Yeah, absolutely. So I have I think the longest running career or income or revenue stream I've had is I've been an executive coach since 2015. And that is something I've done on and off part time, full time throughout. My whole career. Absolutely love it. Actually, I'm sorry. I was I started my first executive coaching engagement was more around 2011, I would say, but not it hasn't been consistent since 2015 to 2015. I consistently started that. And I do that very part time. Now. I also work clinically, I am a psychologist and an integrated primary care organization in my beautiful state of Pennsylvania, where I work as a clinical psychologist, outpatient, I do that three days a week. And I also recently just had two APA interns join me. So I would say my most recent new revenue stream is as a supervisor for AP interns. So I love love, love being able to develop new therapists and, you know, help them develop and identify where they want to go and their potential career paths that bring them joy and energy and how it doesn't have to look as traditional as maybe we once thought it should look. So that's a new one. And then obviously, we have the teletherapist network, which I started in 2020. And I'm so passionate and love, and oh my gosh, I could just do it full time. I just love it. So that's probably the one that brings me the most energy and joy is making these connections and friendships and consultations. And then we have this podcast. So I think that's I think that's all I think that'sall I do.
Allie Joy 16:26
That's it, no big.
Kathryn Esquer 16:28
How about you, Allie? Why, where have your paths lead you.
Allie Joy 16:31
Yeah, so right now, so I do have my own private practice. And I do four days a week. And I have been toning down a bit how many clients I'm seeing when the pandemic hit, I put a lot of pressure on myself to see a lot of people because I was moving to working at home, I didn't have my long commute. And I was like, oh, so I can see more people and I'm getting the most referrals I've ever gotten. So I went way too hard when the pandemic hit, and have been scaling back slowly since then. And I feel like I'm at a much more manageable amount of clients now. So I do that four days a week. And I do this podcast, of course, I do my creative clinical consultation and supervision. I supervise art therapists who are getting their ATR credentials, and I love that so much. And then I also have the joy of therapy, which I it's kind of like my all my social media handles. And it's also my Etsy shop where I create like mental health friendly items, I guess you could say, that just kind of spread the message of mental health. And I love creating things, I love making designs. And that has been a new one that's been a lot of fun. And that's kind of like for me, I feel like that's my network. Like, where I have so much passion for it, I enjoy it, it brings me a lot of joy, I get to express some creative energy. And then I do, it's kind of set up through like print on demand and everything. So it kind of like runs itself outside of like me designing things, which is nice, where I can kind of pick it up and put it down, which feels good for me. And that was something I have been interested in. So I think that's everything. I feel like I'm forgetting something, but that's what's standing out in my brain right now.
Kathryn Esquer 18:17
I think I love what you said, you know, there is such an ebb and flow to where my time and energy goes between the different things I do and my self developed or designed career path, which is so not the way I saw it going when I was in college. And I'm so grateful that I let myself have those freedoms and creativity to design a career path that looks really it fits my life right now. And it will probably be totally different and looked totally different in 10 years or even five years. But do you notice that there's such an ebb and flow into where like we my energy and my attention and where I'm needed most like some weeks, it's like, my clients are consuming all of my energy, and I wouldn't have it any other way. And then other weeks, the network is where my passion and where my entire focus is. Do you notice that too? And what's that like for you?
Allie Joy 19:09
Yeah, I definitely do. And I liked that. And that's why I feel like I do the best with multiple areas for me to focus on. Yeah, because again, I feel like for myself, when I do the same thing all the time, it's almost like I feel like with like meal planning, like if I make the same meal for a while I can eat it, but then I get like tired of it. And I just switched it up. I feel like it's similar Yeah, in what I do in my career. So I definitely feel the ebb and flow. And I love that and I know I personally need it because again, I don't know my brain just gets like I get stuck on something but then I have to switch it and when I'm like need to switch it, I need to switch it. And having these all these different options allows me to do that. So I do feel like it helps me function to the best of my ability for the most part. And I also did not see myself being here. I said for a long time. I would never go into private practice loud and proud. I was like I'll never do that. Here I am.
Kathryn Esquer 20:04
I said, I will never go into clinical practice, I will always be in organizational leadership and be here, I'm so glad we gave ourselves permission to change our minds. That is one thing that I have grown so much in is just giving myself permission to change my mind change my path. No one really even notices. Like, there's I think people you know, um, so, Allie, what would you say if some, you know, you were talking to a therapist, we have some listeners out there who are therapists out there who are seeing one to one patients potentially getting burnt out and are interested and thinking about making that transition into developing a new revenue stream, what advice would you give to them?
Allie Joy 20:46
Yeah, well, first, I would say like you're not a bad therapist. And I would hope that you wouldn't feel like a bad therapist for needing to take a step back from the one to one work. Because like you said earlier, I think it really stood out to me of like, like, we can only help so many people, we only have so many hours that our brains can sort through all of that. But you might show up better when you cut down on who you're seeing. So don't be like you're a bad therapist, because you want to take a step back and reduce your caseload. And then I would say do what feels good for you. Again, like if you're a creative person, if you're an art therapist, if you enjoy teaching, if you enjoy supervising. And I would say to so I don't think I shared this yet, I would say reach out because actually, when I started to look into more diversification, that's how we met Kathryn is when I found the network, because I really was interested in kind of doing some masterclasses and things. And when I found the network, I was like this was perfect. And that's how we connected because I started with giving a masterclass and then fell in love with the network, I run a consultation group. Now I am on the network every day, pretty much. And that led to this podcast, I feel like it probably led to my Etsy shop too, because I know you and I talked about that for a while. So I feel like don't be afraid to reach out to people and find your community of people who support you who inspire you. Because you never know where I lead never did. I think all that time ago when I joined the network that I would be sitting here with you doing a podcast and I love it. So definitely reach out to people, because they might also have opportunities. Because I know through supervising, I got a lot of support from my supervisor when I was getting my ATR and thanks. So it really I think helps to just connect and talk about it. And just see where that takes you. And again, like lean into things you're passionate about and see if they can be incorporated in a clinical way somehow. How about you?
Kathryn Esquer 22:37
I love that. Yes, absolutely. All of that. But I think the one thing that stood out to me while you're speaking, it's just openness, like be more open to try new things to meeting new people. The openness to experience, right? If we're talking about the Big Five personality traits, I think that is something that purposefully lean into that and structure openness limits to explore different paths, explore different options. And even if they're not clinical, you could have different revenue streams that are not even even remotely tied to psychotherapy like that. I think I think I need one of those. So I mean, I think there's just so many different options out there. And in the same breath of being open to meeting new people, like think about who you surround yourself with, if you surround yourself with people who are constantly burnout, or living a career path or a life that doesn't fit for you like those are the only examples and the only soundboards you're going to have to bounce your ideas off of I would encourage you to go meet those people connect to send random cold DMS on Instagram to the people who you look up to and you say I really love what you're doing in this space. Like can we can I buy you a cup of coffee? Can I send you an E card for Starbucks, right? And start can making your network started making your circle of people who are doing the things that you that inspire you outside of the therapy room? I think that is a huge motivator. I think I would I've always had a podcast in the back of my head, but I would not be here if you had not been like, hey, let's start a podcast. Um, so I think it's it's that synergy to be too businessy terms, that synergy of working with other people who are as inspired in their own direction as you are in yours that really can elevate you to the next level and give you that confidence and support that's needed to take that risk. Even though it's not really that big of a risk. It's just like a perceived risk. But yes.
Allie Joy 24:34
And I would say too like invest in your, like professionals around you to like I know, when I was like dabbling into income streams, like I wasn't really talking to my accountant or things like that. But now that I'm really much more diversified in what I do, like it's so important to set things up for yourself on the back end to have like things we don't always think about or talk about of like making sure legally you're in the right place. is with your accountant financially, that you're doing the right things tax wise. Or even like, for example, like I use a biller for my private practice, and she hope she doesn't hear this because she'll charge me more. But like I would pay her anything, I would not survive without her. Like she and a lot of people are like, You shouldn't pay a biller, I do my own, whatever, whatever I'm like that works for you, I will, I cannot do that I would rather pay somebody, you know, to do my billing and handle that, because that is not anything I'm interested in. So again, like, do what works for you. And again, think about the back end of things because they are important too. And in previous adventures, I've had businesses again, and maybe I wasn't all turned out, okay, but I could have done more and felt a little more secure in what I was doing. But again, that's where you can ask questions to people you see who are doing what you want to do. And then again, all of my connections to like my biller came from another clinician, my accountant, I got through someone I know in Connecticut, like, you know, that helps to have like, just with your network and your connections and talking about what you want to do, they can share those pieces that aren't the fun part. But there are important too.
Kathryn Esquer 26:06
They are and pick and choose what works for you, like you said, not everything, not everything that works for other people is going to work for you be that go down the cafeteria line and get a sampling of everything and choose what works best for you. Because, ya know, I'm a huge proponent of systems. You know, I love systems. Systems are how I survive. So think about think about the broader picture as well as the details, and absolutely run, jump, skip hop towards the things that light you up, because I think that's what we did. And that's how we're here and so happy with our career paths.
Allie Joy 26:41
Yeah, I agree. I know. And it's like, I feel like I see it a lot where, like, the term like cycle breaker, right, like refers to a lot of like trauma or family trauma, but I feel like it can relate to your work life to have like, you can break that cycle like you don't have to be feeling miserable, like hating your job, like not feeling fulfilled. Like, yes, we might have to do things that don't completely fill up our cups for a while. But you can try something out part time, you can try and stop. It's okay to stop if you don't like it. And I think sometimes we get stuck as people in the systems that we feel like have been created for us to have like or that fear, or like, oh, well, once I start, I can't stop like you. You can pick it up and put it down. Like we said, you can focus your energy elsewhere. But don't be afraid to break that cycle of like, maybe a more old school mentality of like, nope, or one job all the time, no matter what never quit. Don't change anything. Don't complain. Don't ask for a raise, like, No, we're past that. Now. We don't do that anymore.
Kathryn Esquer 27:40
Not at all. That is beautifully put I say take the risk.
Allie Joy 27:43
Absolutely. Awesome. Well, one thing I wanted to do, actually, before we wrap up, since we are doing different things today, I was scrolling through our podcast and I was listening and we got the sweetest review that I have to read and shout out to a listener because I could not find her on Instagram. So I want to wrap up by reading this lovely note if that's okay with you. I love that. Yes, yes. Yes. So this is from Abby Chattanooga. Again, I'm assuming she's a listener. I could not find her on Instagram. So Abby, if you hear this, please reach out to us. But she shared that this podcast is just what she needed. She said I'm a master's level therapist one year out of grad school. I'm working on licensure and doubt myself all the time. This podcast normalizes so many of my feelings were just so encouraging. So again, I just wanted to shout out Abby for that incredible, like amazing note on our reviews. And again, we would love to thank you. So please, Abby, reach out to us if you hear that. Yes, thank
Kathryn Esquer 28:39
Yes, thank you. Abby, please send us a message. It's hello@abadtherapist.com Wait, what is our email?
Allie Joy 28:47
hello@abadtherapist.com
Kathryn Esquer 28:51
or send us a message on Instagram. Thank you so much for that beautiful review. Allie actually screenshotted it and texted texted it to me over the weekend. So we were chatting about it. It just makes our entire weeks when you guys take the time to leave us a review. So thank you, Abby.
Allie Joy 29:07
Yeah, of course. Well, again, Hopefully everyone enjoyed this different episode. But and hopefully you got something out of it. We'd love to chat about what you do to diversify your income, your revenue streams. You can always message us on Instagram. We're @abadtherapistpod. Maybe I'll even throw it up in our stories of like a question where people can what they're doing and then we can share so people also just the possibilities of what you can do in our clinical world.