13. Whistle(blow) While You Work
Season 1, Episode 13
Find out what happens to Lauren after a mole in her supervision group shares her confidential complaints about her organization with the state-level leaders. You won't believe how many layers there are to her experience. From Medicaid interviews to patient abandonment, Lauren's experience is unbelievable but also oh so relatable in the field of mental health.
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Episode Transcript - Whistle(blow) While You Work
Kathryn Esquer 00:49
And today, we have Lauren with us. Welcome. Thank you. So Lauren, before we hear about why you're a bad therapist, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Lauren Kaufman 01:21
Yeah. So I'm Lauren Kaufman. And I am a licensed clinical mental health counselor and supervisor. My state changed the license name like a few years ago, it used to be a lot shorter. So I still have to like, say it really slowly. And I have been independently licensed and then became a supervisor licensed a couple years ago and independently licensed for about eight years, I think I'm really bad at math. And I focus on perinatal mental health. So working with people who are pregnant or about to be pregnant and have had babies, pretty much anytime in the past. I love working with all different types of parents, and even parents of adult children. So that's kind of my focus. I have a group practice that is only expanded to my husband will add people a little bit later once we get all the group stuff figured out.
Allie Joy 02:31
Well, thank you for sharing. And let's dive right into it. What is the story that you're going to share with us that made you ask yourself if you're a bad therapist set the scene for us?
Lauren Kaufman 02:45
Yeah, yeah. So this happened a long time ago. This happened at my very first place that I worked at, after grad school. And it was a community mental health agency. And I was working as a school based therapist. And I had this all started, maybe two months after I got my full independent license. And I worked there for almost three years, while I was getting hours for my licensure. And I actually didn't have a lot of training in how to work with kids at all in my undergrad or my graduate degree. I didn't really want to work with kids. But this was one of the only jobs that was open for provisionally licensed people at the time. And people really didn't do private practice when this was happening. So like there just wasn't a lot of practices around my area, and certainly not for provisionally licensed. So I took the job and I was very clear that I wanted just a high school. And I wound up in two elementary schools, which was really hard, but I worked my way up each year they added like a little bit higher grades to my caseload until I finally got my last year I was just with high school students. And it was really nice. I love working with high school kids. I think they're really needed some exciting time. So I got to really enjoy it. So yeah, so I was working with high school kids. And all the while I was looking for other jobs, andI finally found a job. I had had many interviews, but finally found a job. And I took it. And I gave my notice to my school based agency. And I said that I would finish out the school year, I had some clients who are graduating, and I just wanted to, you know, finish out my work with them, I didn't think that it would be great to like end services a month before they graduate. I mean, they were stressed about it, they were nervous about it. They didn't know what they're gonna do for the rest of their life. And so I put in this, notice that I would work and then around like, May, mid May, I would just kind of only see the people who really wanted to be seen until their final exams. So then, we had a group supervision. That was for all the people who are provisionally licensed. And one of the things that was so great about my agency are the people that I met working there, I had a super solid friends group, like I'm still friends with many of them today. And it was, it was just a really awesome group of people. And so I really loved this supervision group. And even though I had just got my license and didn't technically need it anymore, I still participated in the group, because I just loved that, and we're all at different schools. So it was a time for us to all like really be together and talk through and have some type of camaraderie besides like, arguing with, you know, the teachers and the principal, and like, whatever, you know, trying to get services and arguing with the Medicaid and whatever. So I really, really liked it. And I kept going all the way up until it got too close to the end of the school year. And we kind of had our last or one of our last supervision groups, and we went out to a park. So we were away from the office, we weren't at anybody's school. And it was kind of a place where we could maybe be more free. And so we all just were kind of like saying all these things that were so hard about working for our agency and just complaining. And just kind of like letting off steam. And I was at that point, because I had put in my notice, and I had this other job lined up, I was maybe a little bit more free and what I would say than I normally would and kind of like really got people into like saying stuff. And but it just felt so good to get stuff off my chest and other people were feeling like really good about it too. Just super helpful. And a few days later, or maybe even less, this is where it all gets fuzzy because it gets really intense. I am told that I'm going to have a meeting with the director of our local agency, the regional director and the state. And this state director is like maybe they would go to like one local site or like, they would go to it like once a year. And so for them to come and meet with me was like a huge deal. And I was like, what? Why? And so apparently there was, I call it a mole, in our supervision group. So there was someone in our supervision group that was in a director position like, as an adult services director or like something like that. And they were in the group for their supervision hours, they still had a very small caseload. But they're they felt their loyalty was to the company. And so they shared with the higher ups what we were saying in the supervision group. And, yeah, so we were all shocked, and like, super betrayed that like this person shared with the higher ups what we were talking about, and what we thought was confidential supervision. And they even made a big deal about her joining. And they were like, you know, she understands that this is confidential, and this is for her hours and to be talking about, like, work with the people that she has on our caseload. But since I guess we weren't talking about individual people, or we're talking about the company in general, I think maybe she felt that was like, confidential. I don't know. But it was really upsetting that we didn't realize that that was going to be happening.
Kathryn Esquer 11:40
So whoa. So here you are working. How many years are you here at the agency at this point.
Lauren Kaufman 11:46
So this was I have to go by school years, because it wasn't full years. But this is my third school year.
Kathryn Esquer 11:52
So you were with this agency for three school years, you had a really awesome group supervision dynamic, really good friends in this group supervision, you had already secured a job outside of the agency, and we're wrapping up your caseload vented a little too much, not even too much is vented a group supervision, which we thought the premises is confidential. And here, a administrator or a leader who had joined your group under the premise of our accruing supervision hours, went back and told the administration and you got called in for a meeting with the state director? What happened? Yeah, what happened next, had that meeting go.
Lauren Kaufman 12:38
It was really intense. So I wanted to be prepared for the meeting. And I kind of had this idea of like, I already have a job lined up, I am the safest person to be speaking truth to power. And like, what could they do?
Kathryn Esquer 12:55
You're not backing down. This is great.
Lauren Kaufman 12:58
So I went. And I told everybody, I told everybody who was in our group supervision, and I told people with different licensures, who were in, not in our group supervision, what was going on. And I was like, so I have this meeting. Why don't you all just give me all of your feedback, I'll make a huge list. And then I'll just tell them all the stuff that we think is going on.
Allie Joy 13:22
Can I just interject for a second. I'm so curious, why were you the only one? Or were you the only one who got called for a meeting out of the entire group?
Lauren Kaufman 13:32
I think there was one other person who did. And so I, she and I were both chosen. Because I was like, saying stuff about, like the company's reputation in the schools. And I was also talking about, like, sharing stuff with the school staff that I had grown really close to. And so I think they were trying to protect the image of the company. And that's why they chose me, because the other people were just like complaining. But I was talking about the image of the company. And then this other person was talking about, which we'll get more into in the in the meeting with the higher ups, but they were talking about some, like illegal pay practices that they were engaged in.
Allie Joy 14:31
All right. So you collected everyone's thoughts. You're preparing for the meeting, then what happens?
Lauren Kaufman 14:36
Yep. Yeah, so I was really prepared with this list. But emotionally I was of course terrified, even though I had this job lined up. I mean, I was like, what if they call the other job and are like, this person's horrible, like, you don't know until you start working somewhere? If your job is secure, and even then it's not so I was, yeah, just so anxious about it. But trying to really lean into this could help people. And the company needs to change. So I just really leaned into that. And then the day of the meeting came around. And, oh, there's some other important backstory before we get to this. So in the midst of all this is this really important interview with the state Medicaid. Because in my state, there's like, or it used to be at least this weird thing where it would take a while for you, once you got your license to get approved, again, to do Medicaid. And all those hours in between getting fully licensed and getting approved to do Medicaid. If you if they end up not approving you, the company has to pay back all of those hours. And so at this point, it had been maybe two months of sessions that I was doing, and so I had to ace this interview, or the company would have to pay back 1000s of dollars. So the company had some skin in the game in this meeting going really well, because they wouldn't want me to get upset and then ruin, like the Medicaid situation. So we have this meeting, and I go in there and it's intense. The state director is not someone to mess around with, they were definitely going like the fear tactic route. And it was, it was pretty much as bad maybe worse than how I imagined it was in my head. It it was just so intense. And I'd never really been in like a business meeting like that, like never with someone who I perceived as being so powerful. And it was intense. They were basically trying to make me feel like I was like stupid and silly forever thinking anything that they were doing was wrong. And they was just very, like demeaning and intense. And I tried to like ignore those comments and just kind of like persevere. And I was like, finally I got the opportunity to say I have an entire list of things that you all are doing. And they were like, Oh, well, let me see that list. Like they were, they did not care. And they were basically like, sweet, now we can, you know, bat each of these things away one at a time. So I started going through the list, and they're like arguing every single point back to me about how I was really unprofessional to share anything like that with my school colleagues. And I mean, it was just like, you know, about how they want us to bill and how they wanted us to go to people's houses, like when they were out with the flu, just so that we could continue with sessions, you know, like it wasn't, it wasn't like, so horrible that I was sharing that with some of the staff, you know, because they were wondering why I was like, asking weird questions about my people who didn't show up. And so I was like, well, but company wants me to at least try, you know. But then we got to sharing about the illegal pay practices, which didn't even affect me. This was, again, something on the list that other people shared with me. And so I shared about that. And they basically tried to gaslight me about it. And were saying, you know that we don't actually do that. I've never heard of anybody who told you this. And so I told them that I actually have this paper proof that they were engaged in these practices, and the whole atmosphere of the meeting changed. They were just like, shocked and scared.And I told them everything that was on the paper, and how it outlined what we needed to do, what they were asking us to do, that was not okay. And so the whole mood changed. And they went into like damage control. And they were very pleasant all of a sudden in that, like, you know saccharin like fake, pleasant. And like, thank you for bringing this to our attention and just really over the top about it. And yeah, it was, it was really amazing to see that 180. So, yeah, then from there, like, I think it was right after the meeting, I went directly to the Medicaid meeting.
Allie Joy 20:47
Oh, my gosh, what a day!
Kathryn Esquer 20:51
I know! Why would they plan that?
Lauren Kaufman 20:55
I have no idea. And it may have been like a day in between, like, it may not have been exactly then like, some time, but in my mind, like years later, it's all the same day. Like, I have no idea. It was rough. But I think they did that so that they could scare me into doing well in the Medicaid thing. But then once I showed that card, that changed everything, then they were like, Okay, we have to pick a new strategy to help her do this Medicaid thing. So I went into the Medicaid meeting, and immediately after the Medicaid meeting, so I think it was a different day, I was called back in this time, the state director was not there. But it was the director of like that our location was there. And they said to me, that I had passed the Medicaid interview. And even though I still had another month to work out my notice that they were actually asking me to leave that day. And they would continue to pay me until the end of my notice. And the most important thing was that this was May 1. And so I was actually able to have health insurance the whole month of May without paying for it. But yeah, they said I could not go to any of my offices to pack up my stuff. And then I was not allowed to be on the premises much longer.
Kathryn Esquer 22:48
So obviously, you didn't get to terminate with your clients.
Lauren Kaufman 22:51
No, I didn't get to terminate with any of them. And it was I was stunned. I mean, I felt like I had been hit with like a wall of bricks. I mean, it was just shocking, that I couldn't terminate with any of my clients. I couldn't even go to the schools and talk to the administrative staff and tell them what was happening. I couldn't say goodbye to anybody. And like, they took everything that day, they took my phone they took with I have my own laptop, they like shut down my logins. And I had to like be escorted to my somewhat new boss, who was actually a friend of mine. For her to talk more about the details and find out all the where all my different offices were in the different schools. And she went and got all of my stuff and brought it to my house later that day.
Allie Joy 23:51
What was the reasoning that they gave you for this? Did they give you a reason? Like, I'm so curious.
Lauren Kaufman 24:00
There was no reason. They, they just thanked me for passing the interview. And that was it.
Allie Joy 24:09
That's so unethical!
Kathryn Esquer 24:13
So like, you've been working with these students for years. There are some of them are approaching graduation. And here you don't even know what they told how they explained your departure to your clients. Exactly. Oh, yeah.
Lauren Kaufman 24:29
Just like not knowing like what would they think of me would they be I was also worried that they would think something bad had happened to me like I was a car accident or like, you know, I and these kids had been through so much trauma like this was all medicated. And so, you know, they have gone through different therapists almost every school year, like just so much change. Which was like one of the ways that I was able to avoid and surely, like be somewhat okay with it. Like, this wasn't the first time any of these kids had experienced that it didn't make it. Okay. But like, it helped me not, like lose months of sleep over it. You know, just being like, Okay, well, this has happened before, they probably think, you know, something out like I just couldn't work my notice or something like that. But it did not feel good. Like that was just ways I used to try to rationalize it. So I wasn't like completely, like destroyed about.
Kathryn Esquer 25:36
So it sounds like it sounds like you knew you weren't a bad therapist. But you were in a situation that potentially made others think you were a bad therapist, your clients, your administration, you knew you were doing the right thing, but the situation didn't allow for you to be a good therapist to your clients?
Lauren Kaufman 25:52
Yes. Oh, my gosh, that's exactly. It's like I knew I was operating in the best way that I could. But I wasn't able to like, you know, share that part of the story with people. So they could they just could assume that I was a therapist who abandons their clients.
Allie Joy 26:13
I'm like, still reeling, that they would prioritize like they are a mental health agency and they are not thinking about client care. And that course of treatment and termination. I'm just still so stuck on that part. Yeah, I am too I mean, it was just like a few weeks and to prioritize their image over providing adequate care. I mean, it's just shocking. Because also, none of the other therapists would be able to, like, take on the people that I was leaving, they would just have no therapy until the next school year. But if they're graduating, they're done. They're done.
Kathryn Esquer 27:00
Did you ever think Lauren, did you ever think about reaching out to them? And and contacting them, even though you were terminated that ever crossed your mind?
Lauren Kaufman 27:10
I it did. Yeah, I very much wanted to. But because they were in schools, and they were public schools, there was no way that I could even go anywhere in the school. Because I wasn't at that point and approved person to be on school property. Like I didn't have any kids that on my own in the schools. I didn't have kids at the time at all. So I definitely could have been like, Oh, my God is just cool high school. I had them when I was four years old. So I couldn't go on to campus. I couldn't,you know, even really, like they wouldn't have been able to tell me anything about my students anyways, because of FERPA, which is Yeah, protecting the kids confidentiality. So it was just like a mess with HIPAA and FERPA, and then school security. So I definitely thought about it, though. At least like trying to get messages like letters to my clients, but I think it was just, I was too afraid that something would happen if I did that. Especially because they were still like paying me. And, and so it was just too murky. But I definitely wanted to and I still think about all of those clients. To this day, at least the ones who I hadn't, like just started working with who, you know, were just like, whatever. But the ones who I've been working with longer, I still think about those clients today and hope that they're okay, and hope I run into them out in public and be like, and they come up to me, of course, I wouldn't go up to them, but hope that they come up to me so that I can say, here's what really happened. I'm so sorry.
Allie Joy 29:19
I'm curious, did you you said that you had a good cohort of like peers that were in there were other clinicians, and that you had connections with the school staff. Did you talk to them on like a friendly level of like, this is what happened? Did you hear anything else from them? Or what were their responses? Like, on that friend level? Not like, you know, again, that they were colleagues anymore?
Lauren Kaufman 29:40
Yeah, so it was actually a little complicated because one of our friend, friends had become my boss. And so but we were all still friends. So it was tough because I like she wasn't a part of this decision. But she was the one who had to carry out the decision. And so I didn't hold anything against her. But I still, I felt awful for putting her in that situation. So there was a lot of shame for like causing all of this stuff to happen. Even though, if I had known it was going to happen, I may have done things a little bit differently, but probably not actually. But it was just hard to access support with my friends, because I didn't want my friend who was my boss to be vilified in any way. She was just being told what to do. And she actually left like a month or two after. And that leads to the next part, which is that it turned out that maybe 20 to 30 people left in the month following this. A lot were my friends, a lot were people who I didn't know, but they heard when it happened. And it was kind of started this like mass exodus. And eventually that company even started losing contracts with the schools. And it just kind of changed everything. So I was able to get support, especially once people started leaving, I was able to kind of hear more about how what I did impacted them for the good for good, like helping them leave and realize that things were really rough. So I was able to get support after the fact. And I also even heard down the line like this was years later, a director from that agency came to work at my new place of employment. And she she was with us like she was really supportive. And she she told me that years afterwards, they still like curse my name. And they would be like, don't be like Lauren, to different like sayings or like if something was going on. They'd be like, Oh, my God, we can't have another Lauren on our team. Yes, I became a meme before they were. Yeah, so it had a huge impact on people. And the organization in the organization. Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was big.
Kathryn Esquer 32:36
Lauren, how did you care for yourself during this time? I mean, super intense, really jarring? And it sounds like super scary as well. How did you care for yourself?
Lauren Kaufman 32:49
That is a really good question. Looking back on it. I honestly, like I don't know, I feel like I mean, it was such a whirlwind. I think some of what I already mentioned, I've just like going through, like they have experienced this before, this won't be shocking to the clients and just kind of like reminding myself of like, the neutral way it could be perceived by them. That was some of it. And then, like talking with my friends who were a little less impacted by it. I vented with the other person who was called into the big meeting. She was actually fired and her meeting. And then they went and told every other agencies not the hire her.
Allie Joy 33:42
Isn't that illegal?! Yeah. And so she never got another job here. But I talked with her about what happened to us and like we were we we kind of like process through it. Did she get a reason why she was fired? Like, did they say why they fired her?
Lauren Kaufman 34:03
No, I don't think so. No, they just were like, I think they were like, if you're so unhappy, you're not working here anymore. Yeah, so no real reason. Just like turning her words back. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that was I think she just totally left the field. Yeah. And so so talking with her talking with some of my other friends, reminding myself that, you know, this isn't totally out of the ordinary for this specific agency. Yeah, that was really it. And then oh, throwing myself into my new role and my new job and my gosh, it was this it was, I mean,
Allie Joy 34:56
I feel like it's very shocking. I've shared before on the podcasts like I worked in a school based health center as well. And we had something similar with our group supervision. We all came from different schools, and I loved it so much like you're saying it was a great opportunity to be like, Okay, this is working, this isn't, to kind of just talk about our experiences. It's challenging to integrate into an administration and like, you know, operate as a therapist and educational world. And we vented so many times, like, I can't even like that. I feel like that's a very typical thing. So to have that confidentiality and safety, like ripped away from you guys with such drastic consequences for so many people, I'm just so floored because I can picture myself sitting in those rooms with my peers in a very similar situation. Not similar consequences, of course, but I'm just so shocked at the agency. How they chose to handle it.
Lauren Kaufman 35:50
Yeah, yeah, me too. I mean, like, even though, like, to the point where I still questioned, did this actually happen to me? And it did, like I lived it. But I still am like, Did that really happen? It feels like a different lifetime.And there's only maybe eight years ago.So yeah, it was, it was really shocking.
Allie Joy 36:19
Well, I feel like we so we always ask our guests, like, if you were to say, what, what advice would you give to a clinician and a similar experience, but I feel like for you, we have many layers of like, I feel like we have it's almost like that whistleblower, like if you see something going on, what advice would you give? And also, there are so many other situations that came up for this. So I don't know where you want to start. But what would you say to clinicians, if they were experiencing any of the pieces of what you went through in the story?
Lauren Kaufman 36:48
Oh, yes, yeah. So I feel like if you are in a place where you feel like you need to be a whistleblower, that it's an important job, but it is really tremendous to go through emotionally, and super intense. And so I would say, if you feel like you are in that position, I definitely encourage you to still go through with it and and be a whistleblower. But before you do that, to make sure that you have a really solid, like support network of people who are uninvolved in the situation. Tell them what you're about to do. And also, maybe if you're able to consult with like, an accountant or something to make sure that you are going to be financially sound through the whistle blowing process, because even though you're legally protected, it doesn't actually mean that it'll go down in a way where you can enact legal protections, like there was no contract that I signed about this. It was all kind of off like record, sort of, I don't even know how to describe it. But like, it wasn't like, I called a number and I was a whistleblower. And then it like started legal protections. It wasn't like that. And so they could have fired me and not said we're paying you through the notice. And then I would have needed to get a lawyer involved, it just was would have been a headache. So like, if you're going to go that route, I think, look at all of the resources that would be available, make sure you have enough money to pay it, lay a lawyer if you want to. Because even if you win and get protections paid back to you, you're still out that money until it's decided that you win, you know. And so I would say to just make sure you go through that process, and I didn't I just was pretty naive, like, I'm just gonna tell them this, it doesn't matter. I have a job lined up. But if you don't have a job lined up, it could be very different. So that's my advice for the whistleblowing. My advice, if you find yourself in a position where you might abandon your clients either, like well, it's should always be against your will, that you're abandoning clients is to have something set up. You know, if you're in private practice, that would be like a professional will. Something like that, so that your clients can be notified what's going on, and aren't shocked and left with no resources. I'm or making up stuff about you in their heads. So I wish that I had done that. And I don't know if it would have been honored or used in the agency. So, yeah, and maybe I wish that I had written letters or at least asked, like my friends who are still working there, if they could go to the schools, because they would have been approved to. So yeah, I wish that I had done that. And I would advise people to figure out how to do that. Maybe write letters and leave it with the administrator and tell them at your school and say, Hey, I'm doing this thing. Please give this to my clients. If I don't come back on Monday. Yeah, yeah.
Kathryn Esquer 40:52
You have had so much courage throughout all of this, that you knew it was going to be scary. Maybe you didn't know how scary it was going to be or how intimidating but you still stuck to what you knew was right. And that just speaks so much to my heart, I am a big See Something, Say Something in person. And I just give you so much kudos and support and love for being able to stick up for what you knew was right, stick up for your colleagues stick up for the clients. And in a way that you know, you unfortunately took the brunt of it. But you still, you know, came out came out swinging came out good. You knew, but I love that piece of advice. Still do it. But know, like, prepare and know what you're getting into. And you can do it right, you still can't just come out the other side doing the right thing.
Lauren Kaufman 41:41
Yes. And I think that's that's actually another thing that helps me get through it is reminding myself that one day, this will be so far in the past, that I won't bother me anymore. And that's mostly true. I still, anytime someone asks to meet with me, like those, like in a collegiate type way, not asking to meet with me, I'm fine with that. But when I worked at my last job, people would do the like, Hey, do you have a minute to check in? Like that type of a thing? And oh my gosh, all the feelings came flooding back every time for years after this happened, it would still happen if I actually had colleagues and wasn't my own boss. Yeah, like that. It's a trauma. Like it doesn't go away. That feeling of like, oh, no, it's gonna happen again. I'm gonna lose my job. I'm gonna lose everything I've worked for I lose my career, you'll lose my license, even though I didn't do anything wrong. Um, yeah. So, but reminding myself that one day this will be behind me at least the cute, all encompassing part of it will be behind.
Allie Joy 42:55
Absolutely. Well, Lauren, we cannot thank you enough for sharing this story. Genuinely, I think it will be so valuable for listeners to hear. So thank you for sharing it with us today. And if anyone wants to connect with you outside of the podcast, where can they find you?
Lauren Kaufman 43:10
Yeah, so you can find me probably best through my website. It's ferncreekwellness.com. And my email address is on there. It's Lauren@FernCreekwellness.com. And then I have a personal Instagram page. I have a professional one but I really am not on it very much. But if you're a therapist and you want to connect with me on Instagram, you can @LaurenK817.
Kathryn Esquer 43:44
And we will link everything in the show notes. Thank you so much, Lauren.
Lauren Kaufman 43:49
Yeah, thank you