15. Think Outside the Therapy Box
Season 1, Episode 15
Chris shares his story about how a slow burnout and life changes led to soul searching and a major transition in his clinical practice. He shares his journey about how he found himself both personally and clinically. We hear how he was able to transition into his own style of therapy outside the box. We talk about embracing our weirdness and how to jump and trust that the net will appear.
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Episode Transcript - Think Outside the Therapy Box
Kathryn Esquer 00:18
Hey, Chris, welcome to Am I Bad Therapist?
Chris Hancock 00:22
A good laugh every time you say, just for warning you. But thank you. Happy to be here and talk with you guys.
Kathryn Esquer 00:30
Wonderful. I do kind of giggle myself every time I think about the fact we host a podcast with that.
Chris Hancock 00:36
It's so bold. I love it.
Kathryn Esquer 00:38
I love going for the shock, shock and shock value. So, Chris, tell us a little bit before we get into your story. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Chris Hancock 00:48
Yeah, sure. Okay. I'm 52. I live in Nashville, Tennessee. I've been here for over 20 years. So longest place I've ever lived. Which is weird, because I still feel like I'm new here. But I'm from New York. I'm a northeaster. And you know, so I don't know. Let's see. Let me jump back a little bit. So well, let me stay here for a minute. I'm married. And I have two daughters and just graduated high school. They're adopted from India. And the whole adoption journey is actually a piece of the story of, you know, what we'll pick up with a little later. But anyway, I graduated, you know, educationally graduated from Clark University in '92. I studied English English Lit degree. And then I did music professionally for six years after that, mainly in the Boston area with old friends. And that was, I'd say, towards the, towards that fourth or fifth year was like the beginning of a first sort of like, who am I what am I doing? And do I want to keep doing this crisis? And, and so without unnecessary detail there, I just wound up leaving it following an intuition, however faint that there was something like this for me, that was calling me. I got into therapy at the time, I think for the second time at that point. And that very quickly helped me to realize, oh, yeah, something like this is what's calling me. And so then fast forward, I went to NYU for my MSW finished in 2000. Worked for a year or two in Manhattan at a great Counseling Center, mainly substance abuse, addiction, outpatient therapy, and treatment. And then some window opened for me to come south, which I always wanted to do. It's just a matter of sort of when and why and everything just opened up and pointed me here. So I came here a little bit after 9/11 happened. Worked at Vanderbilt community outpatient mental health, child and adolescent psychiatry briefly. Then another counseling center after five years at Vanderbilt for a year, then started moonlighting within another year went off on my own, and I've been in private practice ever since.
Kathryn Esquer 03:16
Wow, what a journey. We haven't even gotten into your story. And I feel like we've already heard a story of how you got into being a therapist. That's amazing.
Chris Hancock 03:24
We could just end it here and do another one on the rest. Some other time.
Kathryn Esquer 03:29
Of course. Well, we're dying to hear your story, though. So what is the story that you want to share that made you question, if you were a bad therapist?
Chris Hancock 03:41
You know, okay, so I don't know that I ever really thought about it quite that way. But okay, so where to start on this. So I'd say between the years of roughly 2010, which was, you know, funny enough, about a year after we began our adoption journey, which was hellacious like they usually are goes on much longer than ever should and all that took everything out of us but but for the most beautiful outcome, of course, and we would do it all over again. But I think I think the the toll that that started to take on my wife and myself, but just for me, in every way, professionally, physically, mentally, emotionally. It was like, I've described this before as like an in the beginning of a really insidious, hard to spot, slow burnout that started to show up in things like high blood pressure, which is not it's weird for me. It would be intermittent coming and going, you know, headaches that started to come on more often than there seem to be any good reason for. The longer the adoption process went on the worse all that got. But then the other big piece of it to really is that I realized, in hindsight, you know, that old Erickson quote about insight follows change far more often than the reverse. This is a case of that. The things I just was not seeing clearly at the time. A big one of those was that I stayed married to old therapy models for too long, right? That's one thing I wish I could go back and sooner realize, this is not where my heart is, right. So basically, I had a great education and fundamentals at NYU, but heavily indoctrinated in the older psychodynamic models, right, which I don't regret, I just wish that I allowed myself to expand, and, and, you know, pay homage to that, and keep a toe in it, but move forward and embrace, really all the rest of who I am. And that's that was the big problem, if I had to encapsulate it is that I was suppressing, not denying, but suppressing mainly out of fear, what my soul wanted to do, which was get weird, go go to the borderline lands, get shamanic and transpersonal and embrace my, you know, forever metaphysical mindset going all the way back, excuse me to high school, but mainly out of fear and concern of how I'd be viewed and losing clients and not being able to support my family. I stayed in the box for way too long. And of course, I don't have to tell you guys, and probably most anyone that would listen to this, that the price to pay for that self betrayal is immense, right. So that ultimately led, you know, to after we brought our children home, you know, that was the next wave of just having to adjust to that and show up, you know, with empty tanks, you know, to be the best parents we could be and help or help us all adjust to that whole change. That's what really took it all out of me. And I can't really say how or when exactly, but I just I had a breakdown, not a classic, straight ahead mental breakdown. For anyone that's not familiar with a sort of dark night of the soul, or, you know, the wilderness or a spiritual psychosocial crisis, which, if handled properly, can become an awakening. And I'm very fortunate that has what has happened in my case. And that is what led me after a big period, and I think this is maybe what you really wanted to focus on. So let me not skip this a big period of probably a couple of years of, I guess, feeling like, Yeah, I'm a bad therapist, I'm not really showing up. I'm at a gas and I don't know what to do about that. I can't just stop working, I can't take a sabbatical for a year, it's not an option. So that in combination with staying just stuck in those old models, not having the energy to, to even embrace new things and go do new trainings or whatever, go to retreat. I just kept slugging away hour by hour. And part of that two part of the old bottles was I had two long term groups going on, you know, relational psychodynamic, plodding along weekly, long term groups for years and years, and years and years. And while a lot of wonderful stuff came from that, they went on too long, for a variety of reasons. And it all hinged on me the way that I was just burning out and running out of gas, I couldn't keep it alive, lively, productive. And so I came to a very difficult decision of having to end those and that was incredibly difficult, complex, painful. But but it happened. And I guess that may be that sort of led up to then COVID, where everything changed in the world and closed to my practice. My office space moved home in this space, I'm in right now thinking it would just be temporary, was doing video sessions. And the next thing I know, I realized, this is actually really good. I'm gonna stay here. And my clients love it. And I get to do a lot of telehealth, like we're all pretty much doing. I'm sure I'm leaving out a lot, but I'll stop there and see, yeah, where do you want to take me from there?
Kathryn Esquer 09:42
Well, I just feel like it's still applicable. I think it was in we just recorded episode 12 not too long ago. And so I'm an art therapist, which I've shared with our listeners a lot. And we talk a lot about like different creative approaches and how there might be that pressure to stay feel like you have to stay inside that box. Exactly like you're saying, but there is like, it's valuable to have that foundation, just like you're saying, and the theoretical approaches, it's all valid and important. But it's also important, just like you're saying, and what I talk about a lot, and I know Kathryn does, too is like, how can we be like a modern therapist? How can we be true to ourselves? How can we be creative and help our clients? Because the world is changing, like clients are changing, it's, and I just think that some people do fit more traditional approaches. But I think that the non traditional approaches benefit a lot more clients who maybe wouldn't have been in therapy before. So it's so so valid, and so applicable, what you're saying.
Chris Hancock 10:38
Absolutely. 100%, right. So a big part of my making, my transition was, of course, facing the fear head on having a lot of support. You know, I've had a great therapist, mentor forever, and a lot of other great supports. But facing the fear, and surrendering, I mean, spiritually surrendering. Every day, I think I did that. I still do. But I think I did it. Like that was my number one priority, more important than my next breath, every day, several times a day for a good solid year, in that real real, the darkest part of that dark night of the soul. You know, it's how I think about it. And I started getting answers, and clarity and guidance and weird things started happening in my meditations and still do. And that's a whole nother story that I don't think we'll get into here. But it's, it's beautiful. And what that has done is enabled me to realize the truth of you know, ask, believe and receive. And I'll say something really ironic, I guess about that. I guess it would be ironic is that when I was starting that surrender process, basically, I was asking for one thing was show me a new way to move forward because I was absolutely near convinced at that point, that I can't do this anymore. I'm like, I'm not fit for it. I'm not up for it. I don't think I want to do this anymore. I was having just really serious fantasies about chucking it all move into Florida opening up a crab shack on the living that kind of life you know and and so in the surrendering in the in the testing out the ask and receive the first concrete breadcrumb, I feel like I got was that one day I went to my office opened up my laptop, and up pops this banner ad for something called ask and receive, which is in like an energy psychology method relatively new. And right away, I just looked at that banner. And it had, you know, the Michelangelo, like two fingers touching. And I just knew, I just knew that was a sign that was something nudging me to explore that you want the new way forward? Here's your first clue, right? So, so I clicked on the ad, read about it right away, knew I'm going to train in this paid the money. And within 10 minutes of of that training, I realized, absolutely, this was a sign. And that's the beginning of taking me into, you know, energy psychology into the shamanic and the transpersonal, which is where I always belonged, but you know, better late than never, I guess, and it was, it was almost too late, you know? And that's when, you know, I started realizing, Okay, it's time to tear it all down, tear down the old name, the old website, start fresh, my wife came up with the idea of therapy outside the box. And I was like, of course, that's it, of course. And kind of the rest is history. I mean, it's just been amazingly unfolding. And proving to me also that, that that concept of, you know, jump, and trust that the net will appear, and it's there permanently, I don't even question it anymore. I'm virtually fearless. Now, I'm working in ways that I want. I'm embracing all my weird woowoo stuff. And, and the right people are attracted to it. And like, like you said, you know, there's there's room for everything, right? And there's more than one way to skin a cat. And I know that's a crude analogy, but right, it's true. And so I leave it to other people to do couples in marital and do CBT or more traditional models or whatever. I'm just happy doing what I'm doing. And I I almost don't know how I could be happier added at this point. And if you had told me that a couple of years ago, I would have thought you lost it. Because I was lost. I was absolutely lost. Yeah,
Kathryn Esquer 14:53
That's, that's the part that I love most about your story and something I can really personally relate to is, using the burnout and the questioning of I know, you didn't explicitly question this, but this feeling of am I might, am I bad at this like, or is what's going on like, this is not a good fit, this is burning me out, I don't enjoy it. And I should enjoy it is kind of what comes up in my mind sometimes taking that information and taking that those feelings and using that as information to realign yourself right to say, Maybe I am bad and this this route, or maybe I could be better, but it's bad for me, right? Am I bad therapists to me, for me for you know, for my family, like my showing up in that in an misaligned way you use that information. And then the, the part that really speaks to me is the risk, right? The jumping and knowing the net will be there, I've taken many risks that maybe not as big as yours, but what feeling to be at the time, where it's the jump and really trusting that the net is going to be there. And they are when we when we jump in an aligned way, then that's always there. Right?
Chris Hancock 16:04
Absoutely. And risk is risk, you know, yeah, it's it's immeasurable. If that's a word. You know, it's kind of like pain is pain, we're foolish to compare, right? Our pain with another's pain. So yeah, whether it seems small or big compared to anyone else has just that's illusory, I think, you know, it's what it's what it means it was what it means for us, you know, my risk felt immense, but something in me obviously knew, just do what you know, to do what you've helped other people do, right? Like we what's the old saying, we teach what we most need to learn, right? Or we teach what we teach what we most have needed to learn. In my case, it was all about bringing it home, like you know what to do. And I'm thankful for the book knowledge and having experience of, you know, I had dipped my toe a little bit in through those last couple years, like I put a page on my website, for a sort of a subspecialty to sort of feel out whether I can attract people who are having psychosocial encounters and experiences. And some of them started to come. And that was very helpful, but I just wasn't fully, you know, myself yet. So it was sort of tepid, right. But
Kathryn Esquer 17:27
I think this I'm trying, you know, you went through a very specific transformational journey, specific to you. And I think the thing that most of our listeners, most what I see most like within the Network and on with therapists in general, is this big jump from either agency or group work to this jump, being afraid to jump into solo private practice, right? Afraid the nets, not gonna be there, even though their current work environment or demands are misaligned to what, what they need and what they bring to the table. So can you speak to some of that? You know, I assume the fear was still there, when you made that jump when you shut down your old private practice and rebuilt it. Can you speak to what that process was like, internally?
Chris Hancock 18:12
Um, more or less a constant low level state of anxiety? With with some periods of spikes in that anxiety? Yeah, I, that's the sort of soundbite answer. And it's true. And if it were not for the fact that I had a spiritual focus and trust and faith that I was trying to grow stronger, and rely on more, I wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation. Without that it would not have I would not have made it. I know that. So it was terribly anxious and fraught. Again, I'm the breadwinner. I didn't have the luxury of just taking a year off and going to the jungle and drinking Ayahuasca for a month that probably would have been very helpful, although I did that once. And it was extremely dark and, and extremely dark and painful. This was years before I landed in that darkness. And I look back on it now and realize, oh, it was a foreshadowing. I just didn't know it. It was showing me what's to come. So I'm very grateful for that. But anyway, it was just anxiety provoking as all hell but I just had something in me that was just keeping me supported and
Kathryn Esquer 19:31
Turned on internal sense of security. It sounds like, internal trust and then keeping your alignment in mind and being excited and motivated to work towards that. Right. I think they all work together.
Chris Hancock 19:43
Totally. No doubt. So yeah, I feel like any Yeah, I mean, I made the jump from from clinics and counseling centers where you know, your work is provided for you and you make crappy money, but you know, there's not a lot that you fear until feel like a lot of us you realize this isn't. There's more for me, I'm limiting myself here, not just financially, but I, there's more for me, you have to make that jump. You know, I did it by Moonlighting, testing it out seeing people at night privately. And that quickly gave me some confidence because I reached a point where like, I remember this was back in maybe 2007. Like, when Psychology Today wasn't even a thing really there were like four people on it in my zipcode. Now there's like 400 pages of us on there. So I put up a profile on there saying, you know, I'm working in the in the in the community, but I'm available, you know, I have hours, two nights a week, three nights a week, within like, a month of I couldn't stop the phone from ringing. So I've instantly built a tiny, small moonlighting private practice at night. And that really showed me Oh, wow, this is easy. Now, of course, that was deceptive. Because as years went on, and the field became saturated, and the pages and pages of Psychology Today, therapists grew and grew, that that went through serious dips. And there were many times, especially when I was sinking into my insidious burnout, that the phone was ringing less, and I was more and more fearful. And that's, of course, what then starts generating those thoughts of I'm not very good at this.
Kathryn Esquer 21:30
And I was actually going to ask you about that transition, because I kind of think of it of like, if someone does want to get into a niche, and they want to really have this focus on a certain population or approach for you was you did that gradual transition, it sounds like at night of like starting to, you know, just kind of like, lightly, like I said, tow into it, but still having your full time job during the day. What else would you recommend for trying to transition into a niche of like how to make it work? Like did you eventually have a smaller caseload of your ideal client and then you jumped into it, or what happened?
Chris Hancock 22:04
What happened was, I hadn't I. So once I started that that moonlighting experiment, my plan was to stay at that counseling center for probably a couple of more years. I loved it. It was great. This was post Vanderbilt, this was a little agency called Family and Children's Services that had a had a counseling arm. In addition to the other things that that that they did, I loved it there. It reminded me of the first job I had out of grad school in New York, the whole place to feel a bit sort of old school, connected community based, very social working. And I'm a social work so. So it felt like home. So I didn't, I've planned to stay there and just eventually move to like dropping a day a week, maybe then three days a week and doing private practice to two days a week, that kind of thing. But as whatever would happen habit fate, the universe luck, in a sense, although didn't feel lucky at the time. Once I got full, like I said very quickly, with some private clients at night, all the sudden, something radically changed in the funding, and the business model of of that agency. And they didn't know how to handle it. It was like it became quickly like moving the chairs around on the Titanic. And how they were trying to initially keep afloat was just by giving us clinicians more and more clients to see to the point where I literally remember going to my supervisor and saying, I have this many hours in a day. And I just got seven new intakes. Where am I supposed to put them? Oh my gosh, like it was just math. And nobody was seeing that. This was not making sense. And she didn't have an answer for me. And I realized, I gotta get out of here. This thing is tanking. And I put in my notice, and I hadn't been there that long. And I felt terrible about that. But I couldn't work with it. It was stressing me out. And so I quit. And that was my first I'm good. It seems like the net is there. I'm going to trust it will stay. And it did. And I then found out that after I left one by one everyone left and that whole Counseling Center just dissolved. Yeah, but what I have been able to make that jump without having tested it out with the Moonlighting, probably not I probably would have tried to find another full time job because I just didn't really feel ready at that stage and at that age to to go into private practice. I guess that was is how the story turns out. But I didn't I didn't really have quite that full confidence that I wanted at the time. Yeah,
Kathryn Esquer 24:49
well, it does seem like the stars aligned there and it just really was showing you like this is the time and I think what you're saying too is so valid that I feel like it's therapists or at least I can say I feel this is that guilt, right of like leaving or making that transition, it's, I feel like that's so challenging of like, feeling that pressure to stay or feeling like you should. But as we say all the time, we have to take care of ourselves first. Because if we don't, we are no good to our clients. So what you said there is so, so important, I think, for so many therapists to remember is like, the guilt will be there, you'll feel bad, but you have to take care of yourself and move forward.
Chris Hancock 25:26
You have to and you have to model that for people, right? I mean, look, I went I left 1234 different community based jobs for different, you know, painful terminations with case loads. And it always sucked, it never got easier. It never got better. I don't think it ever would. But yeah, at the end of the day, it's like, you have to be just so cliche, but you have to be true to you. You have to and you feel called to move on. You just you're not doing anyone any favors by staying for someone else, or because you think you have to or to just avoid feeling too guilty.
Kathryn Esquer 26:08
That is a beautiful segue into a question we ask all of our guests. And that is, what advice would you give to someone who is in the same situation as you were someone who's feeling misaligned and burnt out and fearful of making a change? What would you say to them?
Chris Hancock 26:30
Go within or go without? Hmm. Now, that's not mine. I think that's attributed to St. Francis of Assisi, as far as I know. But that's something. Yeah, that's something my therapist, who is a former Franciscan priest started telling me 20 years ago, you know, and still does on occasion, you know, when I'm like, I don't know what to do about this. Yeah. So basically, what he was always trying to tell me what surrender, go within and go, upwards surrender. Even if you don't believe, you know, try it out. You might be surprised, right? That there's a higher force that is compassionate, there are helping spirits, they're helping energies, etc. So that's the main thing. In addition to that, don't isolate, seek support, talk to people, right? Get if you don't have a therapist, get one, get a consultee, get a supervision group, find the right one might take some trial and error, you know, and then seek out I'd say, don't be afraid to, you know, do some Google searching and seek out people who are already seem to be doing things that you think you want to do. Reach out to them, I did that I've done that periodically, throughout my career. And sometimes, of course, people don't respond and okay, you just got to take that on the chin, and keep going. But sometimes you'll you'll, you'll get to even sit down with somebody who can show you yourself on the other side, if you have the fear to keep going to just not give up. You know, I feel like it's so cliche to just follow your heart. But yeah,
Kathryn Esquer 28:11
I feel like to what I'm feeling I'm taking away too from this conversation is to embrace our weirdness. Like don't be afraid to lean into that like that, again, I think is standing out so much to me to like it again, it feels non traditional, it feels different. But there are people who also feel this way there are people who will benefit from your weirdness your creativity, your approach. So I have to just say that again, that has stood out to me so much, and I'm so happy you're sharing that message too.
Chris Hancock 28:36
That is the big message it is if Yeah, if you're different if you're weird. You've got to embrace it. You've got to when you're ready, or even maybe a little bit before you're ready because you might not be ever fully ready. You got to lead with it like like Brene Brown says right that open hearted like here I am. And if you're not in the arena with me taking these risks that I don't think I really need to hear from you. Right meet me here then we'll then we'll talk then I'll be open to your feedback or whatever right? But yeah, you got to like David Crosby said a long time ago right? Let the freak flag fly it has got but you got to keep your feet on the ground. Maybe that's the other thing I'd say if especially if people are going through you know if they're having sort of psychospiritual breakdowns or spiritual awakening or spiritual emergence process, anything that seems to be more than just like mental crisis. And there's a lot of overlap. Sometimes it's very difficult to tease out what's what because they often go together. Lost my point, there... Yes. It's like it's like yeah, the higher you want to soar, the, the more the firmer, your feet need to be planted. It probably goes without saying the importance of embodiment and groundedness You have to or else you're just floating around in the astral realms and you're not going to be able to find your way back and really not going to be able to help anyone in a grounded way. I mean, there were periods in the beginning of my transition where I can look back and see I was not totally grounded, not totally embodied and not totally aligned. I was working towards it. But it wasn't there. But you know, you can't always just wait till you know, it's like, it's like, waiting to be healed, right? What is healed? Yeah, we're healing. We're either working towards our healing, or we're not, but there's no like, I'm enlightened. I've arrived. I'm done. I'm keel. Now I can bring my gift to the world now. No,
Kathryn Esquer 30:42
I love I love that cert before you're ready. Yeah, absolutely. Right. So So Chris, where can if people if listeners want to connect with you learn more about you? Where can they find you online?
Chris Hancock 30:55
Yeah, just www.therapyoutsidethebox.com is my homepage, that's my site. And @therapyoutsidethebox is my Instagram. I'm pretty active on there. I got a Facebook, but I don't even check it. Um, you know, I, I rejected social media forever. I was never part of it till like four years ago. And I realized and other people helped me realize, now that you're making this transition, and you're really coming forth with all of who you are, which is one of the messages I got from the spiritual realm early on, it's time to come forth with with all of who you are. I realized it's, I have to not stay small. So I have to choose some forum and just start talking about just start sharing. So I chose Instagram, and it's worked very well for me. So those two places. Yeah, mainly. Otherwise, I'm here in Franklin, Tennessee.
Kathryn Esquer 31:51
Well, and as always, we will link those in the show notes and on our Instagram @abadtherapistpod. We'll tag you in all of our graphics and everything so people can find you. But thank you so much for sharing your story. It was a pleasure to hear it. There's so many good messages to take away from this one. So thank you so much.
Chris Hancock 32:07
Thank you guys so much. You're wonderful hosts. Yes, great questions.
Kathryn Esquer 32:11
Thank you.