Is This a Felony?
Season 1, Episode 5
Our very own Allie Joy shares her bad therapist story. When a friend's barbecue turns into uncovering some seriously unethical practices, Allie must scramble and ethically respond to someone in her social circle who is claiming to be an art therapist, despite no formal training or credentials. Allie shares with us how she navigated the situation, what thoughts were racing through her head, as well as how you can avoid this Class D felony in your own practice.
Links to CT legislation about Art Therapy and the Class D felony:
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2017/JFR/h/2017HB-06980-R00PH-JFR.htm#:~:text=Connecticut%20does%20not%20license%20art,the%20Art%20Therapy%20Credentials%20Board (note that now there is the CLAT as described below where legislation passed for clinical art therapy credentialing)
https://portal.ct.gov/DPH/Practitioner-Licensing--Investigations/Art-Therapist/Practice-Act
CT now has CLAT licensing for Clinical Licensed Art Therapist (yay!!) https://arttherapy.org/news-victory-ct-art-therapy-license-enacted/
Follow Am I a Bad Therapist on Instagram for sneak peeks, previews, and all of the latest information about the podcast!
https://www.instagram.com/abadtherapistpod/
Connect with Kathryn:
https://www.instagram.com/teletherapist.network/
Connect with Allie:
https://www.etsy.com/shop/TheJoyofTherapy
https://www.instagram.com/thejoyoftherapy/
Episode Transcript - Is This a Felony?
Allie Joy 00:07
Have you ever asked yourself, am I a bad therapist? Well, you're in the right place. I'm Allie Joy, a licensed professional counselor and registered art therapist.
Kathryn Esquer 00:17
And I'm Kathryn Esquer, a clinical psychologist and you're listening to am I a bad therapist?
Allie Joy 00:25
Join us each week for stories from behind the closed therapy door.
Kathryn Esquer 00:29
You'll hear experiences that made us ask, am I bad therapist? Including bloopers, jaw droppers and other difficult moments that normalize the unique struggles of modern day therapists.
Allie Joy 00:42
This is a space with no experts, no gurus and no hierarchies, just humans sitting in similar chairs.
Kathryn Esquer 00:50
And while we're not the gatekeepers for good and bad therapy, because we're bad therapists too, we are here to shine a light on the difficult decisions therapists face on a daily basis and normalize that mysterious gray area of clinical practice that no one wants to talk about. So Allie, we have not talked about this yet. But you are registered art therapist.
Allie Joy 01:17
I know! I am. I'm excited to talk about that a little bit more today.
Kathryn Esquer 01:22
So I have worked with some fabulous art therapists in the past, but I'm not, for me and for our audience, can you tell us about like what is an art therapist in the field of mental health, counseling, or therapy?
Allie Joy 01:36
Yeah, it's always funny when I get asked this question. I'm like, okay, do you want like the literal definition from the like, ATCB of what an art therapist is? Do you want my definition, it gets a little tricky. But we'll get definitely more into that today. And the story I'm going to share and my interactions with other providers in the mental health field, and we're really gonna dive into it.
Kathryn Esquer 01:57
Yeah, words are so powerful. And titles, especially in our field, there's so many different titles get that get thrown around like psychotherapist, psychologist, counselor, therapist, social worker, you know, all clinic licensed clinical social worker, all of these titles get thrown around so much. And it's kind of hard to keep them straight. So I can imagine it's, it's pretty similar in the art therapy field.
Allie Joy 02:20
Yes, it is. And, again, we'll get into it with my story, but it's something I'm really passionate about sharing is just like the education and, you know, I always say I try to come from a standpoint of like, let me just share my knowledge with you and my experience. I don't want people to feel attacked or defensive in any way. Because it's a conversation. I think the more we have these conversations, the easier is to talk about it, the easier it is to understand. So it's definitely no judgments or things directed, like specifically for people to feel attacked, I promise. Like it comes from a place of love and just sharing my own knowledge.
Kathryn Esquer 02:54
Ooh, we're gonna attack people. Okay. All right, let's get into it. But before we do, this is a friendly reminder that Am I a Bad Therapist? podcast is for entertainment purposes only. It is not to be a substitute for consultation, supervision, or your own psychotherapy services.
Allie Joy 03:11
Yes. So this is episode five of Am I a Bad Therapist? Let's get into it.
Kathryn Esquer 03:19
Yeah, so before we hear about what this situation you're referencing is, Allie, why don't you tell everyone a little bit about yourself and your practice,
Allie Joy 03:29
Of course. So I'm Allie Joy, as you guys know, and I practice here in the state of Connecticut, and I am a licensed professional counselor and a registered art therapist. I'm about to be sitting for my board certification very soon as an art therapist. In the studying process for the exam, I've put it off for way too long, but I'm finally doing that. So hopefully soon, I will be a board certified art therapist. I have to take my test before November. We're getting there. But currently, I have my own private practice. And I actually am doing all telehealth right now, I had to close my office due to other circumstances. But I'm going to be opening up an office in the future soon but still loving doing telehealth. I work with all ages, but a lot of college students I love my college students, I love working with them. I feel like it's a wonderful age where they're old enough to make their own decisions and independent enough where they're adults, but they're not too set in their ways. And I often find my college students are so motivated, that we see you know, progress feels like really quick and realistic. So I love all my clients, of course, but I really enjoy working with college students as well.
Kathryn Esquer 04:40
It's a great population.
Allie Joy 04:41
It is, it's so fun. So I have my private practice. And then I also have another business called Creative Clinical Consultation & Supervision, which kind of relates to what I'm talking about today where I love talking about creativity in the clinical room, which is also the name of the group I run on the network. Yeah, I I'm where I like to talk to clinicians about how to incorporate creativity into their clinical practice in an ethical way. Because the work art therapists do is so important, the schooling we do is really important. But I think that with the appropriate language and supervision and consultation, you know, anyone can incorporate creativity into their practice. So those are the things that keep me busy. Yeah, and I love it.
Kathryn Esquer 05:24
Super busy. I'm surprised we both have room in our schedules for this podcast, and I'm so glad we do. So Allie, talk to us about about, you know, art therapy, and and how it how it comes across in the field of psychotherapy.
Allie Joy 05:40
Yes, so it's very interesting, because a lot of people say they do art therapy. But to say that you do art therapy, you have to be trained and registered as an art therapist. So art therapists go, you can get a bachelor's degree in art therapy, but it's similar to like, if you get a bachelor's degree in psychology, you can't do like, obviously, master's level counseling, it's more of like the bachelor levels work. So you also, ultimately would want to pursue a master's degree. So I have a master's degree in art therapy and counseling. And that's the great thing about a lot of programs today is they're dually licensed. So I came out of grad school fully, like licensed eligible for clinical counseling and to be an art therapist. So it's pretty intensive schooling, I did it in two years, a lot of people take three years, but I was hustling. So I took six classes every single semester, including summer, and often some winter stuff as well to get through it in two years. Because again, I wanted to get through it. So we have to take all of the requirements for counseling, and then all the requirements for art therapy, a lot of them overlap, but then there are a lot of specifics. So it is a master's level, you know, credentials. And similar to when you get a clinical license, you have to do post grad hours and supervision. So you have to do 1000 hours of supervised work with clients post grad, you get 100 hours of supervision from an art therapist, and they changed it a couple years ago, where you 50 of your hours can be from like a mental health professional or an ATR registered art therapist. And then the other 50 have to be from a board certified art therapist as well.
Kathryn Esquer 07:23
Board certified, which is your you're sitting for before November.
Allie Joy 07:26
Yes, because I do supervise some art therapists and I started getting into like, you know, pre credentialed art therapy supervision, so so I can give them the full 100 hours and not just 50 I'm pursuing my board certification, so I can be with them for whole journey.
Kathryn Esquer 07:41
That's great. You know, I have to admit here, that if you're listening, and you're like me, I honestly didn't know the amount of work and education that went into becoming an art therapist, when we say art therapists we mean registered art therapist who's gone through the education and supervision. Until I got to my postdoc where I worked with a doctoral trained art therapist, and shout out to Dina she was fabulous. And so kind and understanding about, you know, educating, I feel like a lot of art therapists feel the need, or are put in positions where they have to educate other psychotherapists about their fields, because it's so under, under, under known, not known. Like I did not learn or you know, that to be an art therapist, I guess it's kind of, you know, common sense that you should think, you know, you're not a, you know, you can't really claim you specialize in something without the education and supervision, art therapy is no different. But I think that because art is something that we all we all do. We're all creative people. Everyone has a creative side, even me, that we so easily think that anyone can become an art therapist, which is not true, right? Yeah. So how has this shown up in your work, you know, this this general lack of knowledge around what an art therapist is?
Allie Joy 09:06
Yeah, well, I can say every job I've ever had I've done presentation, what art therapy isn't what art therapists do. And things like that, which is great that I've had workplaces that were interested in learning more. So always have fun little presentation, whether it was like at team meetings or things like that, like just to share, and I do consider it a part of the field is just to share that knowledge. And again, like I said, kind of in the beginning, I really try to take the approach of just sharing knowledge, like, because we make mistakes, we might not know, it isn't widely talked about necessarily. So I try to be that voice from a place of kindness of like, hey, we do this really cool thing. And you can be creative, but the wording, like we said earlier is very important. So even in school, you know, like we it gets really gray, as in all areas of clinical practice, but like we learned how to do art therapy assessments, so We have formal art therapy assessments, which are so fun to do. And we're learned, we learned we're taught, and we learn how to administer them, assess them and things like that. And interpreting artwork can get very tricky. So that's kind of where I draw the line of like, the difference between being creative in clinical practice and doing art therapy is can be within interpretation, because you learn when to and when not to and the gray area, and how to ask questions and really dive into what is being said in artwork, versus if you're doing art for coping skills or stress, you know, relaxation, things like that. I think that falls, of course, under art therapy, but it could be under the realm of therapeutic artmaking as well.
Kathryn Esquer 10:44
Gotcha. So would you say, you know, draw for clinicians out there who use creative interventions in the therapy room to really be cognizant of this line between using creativity in the clinical room as an intervention in itself, is is generally within the scope. But then if you use art or creative interventions to inform further treatment, or to inform diagnoses, or to the assessment piece is where we're really working beyond our training scope, if we don't have training in art therapy?
Allie Joy 11:17
Yes, definitely. And I think even some interventions, it can get a little gray too if like, you know, trauma comes out in artwork a lot, but you really want to be careful. And again, this is where it gets a little gray of, if you're missing signs as well, you know, if someone's like, you know, like in our field, if someone verbally is saying certain things that can lead to high risk assessments, different things like that. And if you're missing a piece of the artwork, because maybe you weren't trained to see it, look for it, or ask certain questions, you could be missing a very important, potentially risky piece as well. So I'd say if you start getting into exploration of trauma, really deep things, potentially high risk things, that's another area to be very mindful and aware of like, is this within my scope of practice?
Kathryn Esquer 12:00
Wow, this is great. We haven't even gotten into the situation. I know, your bad therapist situation yet. But I'm loving this conversation. This is really informative. And another piece that I learned from the Art Therapist I used to work with at my postdoc is that documentation also matters in art therapy. And I had, you know, I was documentation we know as therapist is very important if we don't know how to document art, our interventions, like that's also beyond our scope. You just wanted to throw that in there correctly. Yeah. Okay. I'm not. I'm not overstepping my own knowledge. No. So Allie, tell us about a situation that came up for you as an art therapist. We're like, Oh, crap. Am I a bad therapist?
Allie Joy 12:40
Yes. So the situation I'm going to share happened in a personal situation is how it started out. So I was invited to I think it was a barbecue, cookout type thing. And the host was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so happy that you're coming Allie, I really want to introduce you to my friend who's also an art therapist that can't wait for you guys to chat. I was like, Oh, this is great. Like I love obviously, networking is such an important part of what we do. It's nice to talk to someone who understands what we do. And of course, meeting another art therapist. There's a lot of us, but we can be few and far between, and especially Connecticut's a small state, there's a wonderful crowd of art therapists here, but I feel like I could always, you know, meet a new art therapist. So go to the barbecue with the knowledge that I'm going to be introduced to this person. But again, it's still kind of like just a casual, fun type thing. So I get to the cookout, the host says, Hello, all that stuff that like, Oh, don't forget, I want you to meet this person. So they introduced me, this is so and so they're an art therapist, and you guys should chat. They leave. I'm like, hi, it's so nice to meet you. I'm Allie. What do you do? Like where do you work? Blah, blah, blah. And then I think I got into like, oh, my gosh, where did you go to school? Because I went to school in Massachusetts. And there was a program in Connecticut to that are accredited art therapy program. So I was like, oh, did you do Connecticut? Did you Mass? Were you somewhere else? And they were like, oh, no, I went to school, like, at this place for counseling. And I was like, Oh, cool. Like, did you do like, post grad supplementation? Like, what was your journey? And I'm starting to get that feeling in my stomach of like, what is happening?
Kathryn Esquer 14:24
Did this person identify themselves to you as an art therapist?
Allie Joy 14:28
They said, I do art therapy.
Kathryn Esquer 14:31
Ah, okay. Okay.
Allie Joy 14:33
So again, I was like me, you know, I didn't really think of it at first because they, I think, again, it's when someone who's not in our field, they were like, they're an art therapists, they do art therapy. That wording doesn't really stick in my brain because it's complicated to understand what we do. So I didn't really even think about it. But then they were saying like, Oh, yeah, I do art therapy its great. And then when I started getting into the questions, I quickly realized that they were not an art therapists. They had never taken any classes or training, anything in art therapy at all.
Kathryn Esquer 15:04
So to liken this, this would be like saying, I'm an EMDR therapist, or I practice EMDR and never having any EMDR training?
Allie Joy 15:14
Yes. And that's actually the exact way I try to explain it to people is with EMDR. Because we all know what it is. And I don't think many of us would say I do EMDR without the appropriate training.
Kathryn Esquer 15:26
Or even trying EMDR in the therapy room without some training, you know, right. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Why do you think why do you think, you know, people are so like, the distinguishing between EMDR and art therapy, why do you think it's so easy, and it happened? It's so common for people to identify as art therapists, but they understand the difference with EMDR training, or DBT, or CBT. Any of those types of clinical interventions they understand they need training and supervision, but art therapy? No, no, I just do. I'm an art therapist, because I do art in the therapy room. Why do you think that that happens?
Allie Joy 16:02
Yeah, it's a really great question. I think that maybe because art is familiar to us. And it's very similar with play therapy as well. And I've talked to other registered play therapist about this, where it's very similar experiences, where play therapy, they become registered play therapist, and a lot of people say they do play therapy, without the appropriate training and language. So I think it's because they are familiar concepts. We all did art as a kid we all played as a kid, we still do it as adults. So I think it's like, oh, I can do art in the therapy room. Because I've done art. I know how to be creative. And again, it's not to say that you can't, it's the point that I try to drive home is just the way you talk about it. That's so important. So that's what I think. Because again, we all are familiar with it, it seems like another tool that we can just bring in to the clinical room.
Kathryn Esquer 16:48
Yeah, that's so interesting. Play therapy is another great a great example, that familiarity we have is dangerous, right? We know like I know, I don't know much about EMDR. So I know I need training, but I might not think I have two toddlers, I might think I can have play therapy, but I don't have training in that, right?
Allie Joy 17:07
Yeah. So I always say to just think about the words you're using. Like I always say you have to art and be creative in the clinical room. You just want to make sure you're saying that you're doing therapeutic art making and I've asked other you know, play therapists I'm like, you know, in art therapy, this is the language I use as therapeutic art making for people who aren't trained. Is it similar in play therapy, the feedback I've been given from registered play therapist, although if you are an RPT please let us know if you prefer something different. But, come on the show. But what I've heard from people is they prefer the term therapeutic play for people who are not registered play therapist. So very similar. And I always share this too. In the state of Connecticut. Again, we have incredible art therapists who work with legislation and things like that. Currently in the state of Connecticut, it is a Class D felony to say that you are an art therapist without being trained.
Kathryn Esquer 17:59
Whoa, yeah. Felony status. Okay. So, how did you handle this situation at a social barbecue where you met this innocent seeming art therapist who's actually committing a felony?
Allie Joy 19:34
Well I will say at the time of this happening, it had not been in legislation yet. So we'll give them a little bit of a break. Although most people still in the state of Connecticut don't know what exists because they pass laws and they don't tell anybody I really believe.
Kathryn Esquer 19:49
Ignorance isn't an excuse though. It's not an excuse right, like a speeding ticket.
Allie Joy 19:54
Exactly. So again, to give them credit, it had not been passed at this time, but I felt like I had a big giant internal dilemma of, okay, I'm a personal event, I'm probably in like a bathing suit in shorts or something like that. And this person knows a friend of mine. Do I put on my art therapist hat and go into education mode? Or do I just keep it personal and I, my decision, ultimately, that I made is I have an ethical obligation to the field that I'm in, and the clients that I and others serve, that this could potentially do harm unintentionally, but it still could cause harm to clients. So I, in my mind, politely, hopefully, in a nice way, transitioned into like, oh, my gosh, that's really great that you like exploring creativity. But I do want to let you know that to say that you do art therapy have to be trained and registered and have the appropriate credentials. And they kind of were like, oh, yeah, yeah, of course, like, didn't really seem to take it seriously. And again, I felt like I had another like, internal dilemma of like, am I going to do this and then stay here, am I gonna leave? Am I gonna say something to the host it I felt very uncomfortable, because worlds were colliding of like a personal event, but talking about professional things. So I kind of kept talking about it. And I was like, you know, using the example of like, you could say that you do therapeutic art making, we do spend a lot of money to go to school for this, it's a lot of training, comparing it to like people who specialize in eating disorders, or EMDR, and things like that, and kind of trying to share the liability of it to have like, again, coming from a place of education and knowledge. But saying, like, there was a situation here in Connecticut, where someone was working with clients saying that they specialize in eating disorders, they were not trained, the clients, they were working with work at such low BMI that they should have been hospitalized, but because they didn't have the training, they didn't know, create this whole big thing. I was like situations like that could come up for you if like, if you miss something, or if you're not reading the signs, like kind of try to go until like, you need to cover yourself, like trying to really come at it like you don't want to be liable. You don't want to be practicing out of scope. So ultimately, it was just conversation. It was very uncomfortable. They listened to me. But I don't know how much they took it in.
Kathryn Esquer 22:29
Did you know, how many people were at this barbecue?
Allie Joy 22:34
It wasn't huge, maybe like 10-15?
Kathryn Esquer 22:37
I mean, did you have to keep interacting throughout the night? What was the rest of the night like for you after having to set that ethical boundary and education? I'm so glad you did. Because my first question would have been if you said I decided to let it slide, which I didn't think was gonna say my first question would have been so your ethical obligation to the clients that this person serving or the community, but I'm so glad you did what was the rest of the night like? What, what what got back to you?
Allie Joy 23:02
So I am pretty sure that I just ended up leaving after eating of like, okay, hey gotta go, that kind of thing. Because it felt very uncomfortable. I didn't want to, I didn't want to keep talking to this person, really, because I didn't feel like again, I felt like they listened to me, which I appreciate it. But I don't feel like it was taken very seriously. So I felt very uncomfortable. And this is someone who a friend of mine was friends with and it was at someone else's home. So I didn't want it to be really awkward or more awkward than it needed to be. So I kind of like because I went with somebody we kind of ate and I was like, I'm gonna go like this kind of thing said bye to the host. And I didn't say anything to the host. Although I've I found out later that the other person said something to the host. I don't know, actually, if the host asked them like, Oh, how did it go talking to Allie? Or if they brought it up? So I don't know who brought it up. But they were like, Oh, I heard that you know, you kind of went all like, enforcer on them or something. Whatever words they said, but that was what I got out of it. And I was like, Well, yeah, because it gave that knowledge again, like this is something that I have worked really hard for. I'm trained and it's and just in the field in general, it's really important to distinguish it. I was like, I'm sorry, if I made it uncomfortable. I know this was like a personal thing. That's why I was like I wanted to end up just leaving after we ate because I didn't want anyone to feel uncomfortable, like but I feel like I just have an obligation to talk about these things in the field and what we do so I kind of just tried to explain it to my friend who's not in the mental health field at all of like, this is why I did it. I apologize if it made anyone uncomfortable. But ultimately, I have a responsibility just like we're mandated reporters, we're mandated reporters all the time. We don't turn it off. And I feel like it's very similar with our own ethical obligations.
Kathryn Esquer 24:50
Yeah, which varies by state to state and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. So make sure you check into yours if you're listening. So what would you said it to people because it sounds like the other therapist kind of perceived your your attempt at kind of boundary setting in their in their clinical practice as almost elitist or or exclusive, exclusive, exclusionary. What would you say to people who think that that's happening in the fields of art therapy?
Allie Joy 25:26
Well, I would say that nobody says that about EMDR.
Kathryn Esquer 25:31
Very good point. Very good point.
Allie Joy 25:33
So I would say, if you feel attacked, or if you feel uncomfortable, look at why you're feeling that way. Yeah. And if you have done it before, that's, we're not talking about the past. It's about like we said, you can't claim ignorance or not knowing, just take the knowledge and adapt to having new information. So just be careful. Make sure you're saying that you do therapeutic artmaking. Make sure that if it starts to feel like if you're working with a client, and you're feeling like you're missing things where you might not even know like, look at what you're doing, and look at your scope of practice. And I just tried to bring it back to, like I say this a lot in the clinical in the group I run on the network, like, it seems like art therapists have a monopoly on creativity, that's not true. You can do therapeutic art making you can be creative. It's a topic I'm so passionate talking about, I literally have a business for other clinicians to incorporate creativity into their work. So I'm not saying that you can't do art. I'm not saying that you can't be creative. I'm just saying, as art therapists, I think we're saying it's just you need to be mindful of your scope of practice, just like with any specialty, you know, that you've received training in EMDR, CBT, DBT, all of those things. It's the same thing. And I think the respect and understanding should be extended to art therapy as well, of course.
Kathryn Esquer 26:49
Beautifully put. So for those of us listening, who maybe find themselves in situations where Oh, am I crossing the line? It sounds like the first step to you know, take, take some steps towards ethical advertising and ethical intervention, creative interventions would be absolutely look at your wording. Look at how you're using creativity in the therapy room. But then, if they want to become an art therapist, or learn more about art therapy, where are some places they can go to do that?
Allie Joy 27:21
Yeah, so the American Art Therapy Association is a wonderful, wonderful resource. There's all sorts of informations on, you know, programs, accredited programming providers, and things like that. So I would say, go to the AATA website. It's, again, an American Art Therapy Association. And also, we have the ATCB, which is the art therapy credentials board, which goes into more about credentialing and things like that. Or you're always welcome to I would say, I welcome conversations, you can always reach out to me, and we can DM about it, you know, if you want and get further to consultation, things like that, but just talking to people and don't feel, again, if you've done something and you've said, you've done art therapy before, don't be ashamed of it again, just kind of own it and be like, Oh, my gosh, I didn't even realize I was doing this thing. How can I fix it? And I hope to the more that people talk about this, there will be like in Connecticut, I think it's amazing that the state that I live and practicing, has this legislation about scope of practice. And I think getting that word out there and sharing it and having other people become aware of it. So I think the more we talk about it, the more knowledge that can be shared, you know, the more people know about it. And even like, for example, I get a little frustrated with Psychology Today, they have it in their little checkboxes of the ways that you practice, you can just check off art therapy, anybody can check it off.
Kathryn Esquer 28:40
Oh, that's a really good point. They do.
Allie Joy 28:45
Because I've looked for you know, when I'm looking to refer other people, or even for my own therapy, when I was looking, I would see someone did art therapy. And this is kind of another this is a whole other story to share. But I be like, Oh my gosh, I'm looking for my own therapy, you know, I saw you do art therapy, what are your credentials? And either they would ignore me or they would wouldn't have them. But they had checked it off on their psychology today. Right, right. So I think there should be more like, some sort of like to put in your credentials, you know, has to be verified when you do a Psychology Today profile. And I think that for something like art therapy, it should be similar. You should have to have the credentials, you shouldn't be able to just check it off. Right on a box that no one
Kathryn Esquer 29:26
EMDR if you're not trained in practicing EMDR. Right. Interesting. So, Allie, what would you say? Because this comes up probably in other in other niches or other trainings. What would you say to other therapists who find themselves in a social situation where another peer colleague is kind of, you know, advertising what they do beyond their scope? How would you how would you recommend they handle it?
Allie Joy 29:54
Yeah, well, I think it's natural for us to ask like, am I a bad therapist, like, am I crossing a line. But I would say just come from a place of kindness and sharing so that someone doesn't feel like you're attacking them. Because that's not how you want someone to feel. And I don't think that's how we change actions. In my opinion. I think that just coming from a supportive place and encouraging place, and a kind place, but it is, I think up to us to say things in a nice way, and to set those boundaries. And it may feel like you're a bad therapist, it may feel like you're crossing a line. But ultimately, it is okay to set boundaries, you need to set boundaries. And again, if you're practicing in this field, it's up to us to make sure we're not doing harm to clients and other people aren't doing harm to clients either.
Kathryn Esquer 30:42
Beautifully put. Thank you, Allie, for sharing that story. Hopefully, we can continue to spread the knowledge and the resources for art therapy out there so other people can practice within their scope and get the training that they want and deserve.
Allie Joy 30:59
Yes, I agree. And, again, if anyone wants to talk about it, or ask questions, I'm more than happy to answer any questions to talk about it more. If you're again, I love the group that I run on the network. I feel like we have so many wonderful open conversations about what is art therapy versus therapeutic art making. I gave a masterclass on the network as well about creativity and clinical practice. So it's something I love to talk about, I won't judge you, I'm not going to come from a place of like wagging my finger. So if you want an open place to talk about these things, please reach out I'd love to talk about it. And again, I just always want to share that knowledge.
Kathryn Esquer 31:35
Thanks, Allie. Thank you. And that's it. The OG bad therapists Allie and Kathryn are signing off for the week.
Allie Joy 31:44
Make sure to subscribe and leave us a review. If you include your Instagram handle. We just might send you some bad therapist swag.
Kathryn Esquer 31:51
Are you a bad therapist and want to be on the show? Go to abadtherapist.com and tell us your story.
Allie Joy 31:58
Our podcast is produced and edited by my amazing husband Austin Joy. He also created the music for intro and outro you can find this song along with many others on any music platform under the artist air for effect. And if you're a bad therapist, starting your own podcast, contact Austin for his full suite of podcast and sound production services. You can find him on Instagram @Air for Effect
Kathryn Esquer 32:21
and don't forget, we're all bad therapists.