Bending boundaries until they break
Season 1, Episode 2
Ryan bends his boundaries for a client who no-shows a lot only to be the target of anger and formal complaints when their work together is terminated.
Follow Am I a Bad Therapist on Instagram for sneak peeks, previews, and all of the latest information about the podcast!
https://www.instagram.com/abadtherapistpod/
Connect with Ryan:
https://wellmanpsychology.com/ryan-coventry
https://www.instagram.com/coventry_counseling/
Connect with Kathryn:
https://www.instagram.com/teletherapist.network/
Connect with Allie:
https://www.etsy.com/shop/TheJoyofTherapy
https://www.instagram.com/thejoyoftherapy/
Episode Transcript - Bending boundaries until they break
Allie Joy 00:07
Have you ever asked yourself, am I a bad therapist? Well, you're in the right place! I'm Allie Joy, licensed professional counselor and registered art therapist.
Kathryn Esquer 00:17
And I'm Katherine Esquer, a clinical psychologist, and you're listening to Am I a Bad Therapist?
Allie Joy 00:24
Join us each week for stories from behind the closed therapy door.
Kathryn Esquer 00:28
You'll hear experiences that made us ask, am I a bad therapist? Including bloopers, jaw droppers, and other difficult moments that normalize the unique struggles of modern day therapists.
Allie Joy 00:42
This is a space with no experts, no gurus and no hierarchies, just humans sitting in similar chairs.
Kathryn Esquer 00:50
And while we're not the gatekeepers for good and bad therapy, because we're bad therapist too, we are here to shine a light on the difficult decisions therapists face on a daily basis and normalize that mysterious gray area of clinical practice that no one wants to talk about. So Allie, how many no shows have you had this week?
Allie Joy 01:18
Well, I was on vacation, so maybe this will give me an out. But I will be honest and say that I'm really too flexible with my cancellation policy- I'm being vulnerable here. How about you?
Kathryn Esquer 01:30
Really? Yeah, so I'm, I'm pretty strict about it. I don't have a lot of flexibility, because as soon as I give myself a little flexibility, or little wiggle room, then like it's a slippery slope for me. So I'm pretty firm. And I have like my admin help me be really firm. But you're
Allie Joy 01:52
I know. Well, and I a guess we can say like, I'm borderline bad therapists, but I will also say I have, I'm so lucky, where I have an incredible retention rate, like my clients are amazing. They show up most of the time. So I feel like maybe because of that I'm a little more flexible, because it's rare when people do kind of like cancel. I rarely have no shows, knock on wood. Like I'm very grateful for that. So maybe because it doesn't happened a lot, I'm pretty flexible. And I will say too, some weeks. I'm so booked I'm praying for somebody to cancel.
Kathryn Esquer 02:26
I have absolutely, absolutely been there. Please cancel so I can get caught up on notes, yeah.
Allie Joy 02:32
So I can go run, yeah, I was going to say so I can eat lunch if I'm not scheduling myself a lunch.
Kathryn Esquer 02:39
Well, before we get into Ryan's story about how he had to manage a very complex situation that involves, I think, 18, late cancellations and 11 no shows, we do want to remind you that everything we say here is for entertainment purposes and not a substitute for therapy, ethical guidance, or clinical consultations.
Allie Joy 03:02
All right, and this is episode number two of Am I a Bad Therapist? Let's get into it. Hi, Ryan. Before we hear about why you're a bad therapist, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your clinical practice?
Ryan Coventry 03:18
Absolutely, Allie. So my name is Ryan. I am a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor here in Chicago, Illinois, I work at a group private practice, where we get to help, you know, to kind of guide a lot of people to the mental health that they need in their own journeys. My own personal practice involves a lot of work with members of the LGBTQ community. I tend to joke a lot, especially with some of y'all here that it kind of feels like practicing small town mental health, just with all of the overlapping relationships. A lot of what I do is really focusing on anxiety, depression, the standard stuff for most of us therapists. But a lot of what I really found my kind of niche in is working with individuals navigating through really challenging relational difficulties either within themselves or within the relationships that they're a part of.
Kathryn Esquer 04:13
I ,you know, living and working in a actual small town, I can absolutely relate to the ethical dilemmas that come up when you are part of the community in which you serve, which I know that Ryan you and I have swapped stories many times when navigating those situations. So I would love for you to share with us and our audience, tell us why you're a bad therapist.
Ryan Coventry 04:37
Oh, I'm not, I'm perfect. Are you kidding me? No, no, no, no. I think what's so important about kind of acknowledging like, what makes someone a bad therapist isn't necessarily like a label that large. But hey, you might have some screw ups and how did you navigate through that? And I think a lot of times those like, bad therapist moments are like when we hurt a client, and whether that was intentional or not, is really the most important piece there. And can you kind of repair from that rupture? Or, you know, how can you manage your own feelings about it knowing that maybe it's that clients journey to process that rupture and that injury and wounding on, on their own without you.
Kathryn Esquer 05:21
I couldn't agree more. Now, when you share this do any particular situations from your career come up?
Ryan Coventry 05:28
Yeah, I, I have one in particular that I'd love to share with you guys today. And it's one that I had to seek out so much consultation on, and I kid you not, I really talked, I think, to maybe five or six different colleagues about this particular case, you're just trying to figure out what do I do? How do I kind of address this? And then also, lately did I fuck up? Well, so the short version of this is that I had a client that I was working with for almost two years. And over the course of those two years, this client late cancelled or no showed eighteen times.
Kathryn Esquer 06:17
And how often were you seeing them? How often were they scheduled with you?
Ryan Coventry 06:21
They were scheduled to be seen once a week. Now, that's just late cancels. There were also several other cancellations for a variety of other reasons. But more likely than not, this was someone who was supposed to come in on a weekly basis. And just would either the night before, the day of, the hour of, would either text me or just not show up at all, and would come up with some form of an excuse thing like, can't make it.
Kathryn Esquer 06:50
And what were your cancellation policies at this point?
Ryan Coventry 06:54
So my cancellation policy is pretty standard, you know, from what I understand, requiring a 24 hour advance notice. Otherwise, there's a late cancellation fee that's applied to a client's account. And so you can contact me in all sorts of ways, right? You can email me, text me, call me, right? Hell, you can send me a letter in the mail, if you really know in advance that far enough, right? You know, we give people a lot of different openings to say, so I even create my own email reminders to clients that go out 25 hours in advance of the appointments. So like, there are so many opportunities for someone to say, hey, I'm not going to come.
Allie Joy 07:30
Yeah, so did this person this client pay 18 late cancel fees?
Ryan Coventry 07:35
Yes.
Allie Joy 07:36
Wow.
Ryan Coventry 07:38
So in addition to paying for, you know, whatever co payment you have per session, you're also paying a lot of extra money on top of that, that insurance is not covering.
Kathryn Esquer 07:53
Yeah. Tell us more.
Ryan Coventry 07:55
Yeah. So I guess, to kind of dig in a little bit more, I received this referral within our practice. A partner of one of my colleagues, clients was looking for a therapist. He worked with our practice manager initially to try and schedule his first appointment. And we experienced some of these difficulties just trying to get them scheduled in the first place, and it was very surprising. But eventually, we did get them into the office. And he described initially, like anxiety issues, right. I did my intake and the assessment revealed a diagnosis for post traumatic stress disorder, in the chronic sense. This client had just a significant trauma history that stretches all the way back to his childhood, involving both sets of parents as perpetrators. And the complicating factor of this particular case is that the client revealed over the course of his intake, and resulting sessions, that his partner had engaged in several acts of verbal, physical and emotional abuse. You know, just over time, he would reveal additional instances of domestic violence that occurred within their relationship. I just, I remember so many stories, that he would share with me a day or even hours after they happened, the times where he would share that his partner had shut off his phone and credit card and threatened to throw him out of the home and had in fact actually had the locks changed. After, this is a key piece here, the client had discovered that the partner for cheating on him. So this client even shared that he had only one positive therapeutic experiences. This was a therapist that his parent had set him up with in secret from the rest of his family and friends. And I found that to be particularly activating, right it kind of hit on that compassionate part of myself that was like alright, this is where we could dig in. This is where, you know, things get to be a little bit more high pressure as a therapist. Because he also added that the handful of other attempts to find therapy, he reported had ended abruptly after a few sessions. He had said essentially that he didn't continue them because he didn't want to continue talking about those things. I will admit full heartedly that I had so much emotion and compassion for this guy. And what he was struggling with, to think about someone who had a chronic history of trauma, individuals in his life who hadn't been there for him in ways that he needed, and in fact, been completely neglectful of his needs to have the most intimate partnership, the space that is lacking severe safety, and actually be quite harmful to him, you know, my heart kept going out to this person. And so part of what I really can admit, that I latched on to is that this person truly began to believe that he wasn't worth anything. So over the course of our treatment together, I noticed that the client would cancel many of his sessions. Sometimes he would provide advance notice, thankfully, right, that's what we ask for folks. But most of the time, he canceled within one to two hours with you if showing up at all. Like I said, you guys, you know, I have a policy on like, cancellations, right? It's pretty standard, as I understand across the industry. But then I have like this personal practice where, you know, if you have a time slot with me, right, like, that's your slot every week, unless you and I come to some arrangement that we're going to change. But if you miss that, with a late cancellation, or no show more than three times within a six month period, you lose that time slot, right? I tell clients about this after the second occurrance. So like, this is something that you will know about from me. In total, this client, no showed or late canceled 18 times, and cancelled 11 sessions in under two years of therapy. So this is the part where I found myself just kind of struggling, like, why am I continuing to kind of, you know, bend this boundary that I have with clients like I should feasibly at this point, you know, already kind of reinforce it, releases time slot, etc. But because of the compassion I had for him, I bent my policy, and I pushed myself to keep working with him. I convinced myself at this point that, you know, we have developed this rapport, and ability for him to be vulnerable with me. And at one point in our work together, I became emboldened to name this like very cancelation kind of habit as an avoidance of therapy and the emotional distress that he experiences. And he agreed, so it kind of really affirmed this idea for me that like, yes, you know what you're talking about here, this is what's happening here, this is the way that he can show, right, like, let's be a little bit more flexible with these boundaries, because people show up in the way that they can. So towards the end of, of our working relationship together, we had come to an understanding. I said that, I'll make it a deal. You can show up for three sessions per month. And we can continue working together. That means you can cancel for any reason, right? I don't care if it's a late cancel a no show, you cancel in advance, you can cancel once per month. But if you cancel more than once per month, then we have to stop. And he had claimed that he understood where I was coming from and why I was trying to reinforce his boundary. And he said, sure, I can do that. And he managed that for two months. But then within the two months, client missed two sessions for reasons he described to be, quote, unquote, out of his control. This was a moment where I thought, I really feel like I need to reinforce his boundary, I set this with him. Why am I not doing this? Why am I choosing to continue to work with him anyways? I reminded, I didn't have an answer, but I did remind the client of the boundary and told him that I should reinforce it. But I am choosing not to because he said he knew what it meant being termination.
Allie Joy 14:26
Wow. Now I'm curious, did something lead, so when you set that boundary, was there like an increase of like additional or more than usual cancellations? What led you to that point to set that boundary of, we're gonna do this understanding of attend three sessions a month, what led up to that?
Ryan Coventry 14:47
So admittedly, this was partially because of the pandemic. This was the height of the pandemic, when there was such a need for services. Right. I'm confident that the two of you, were also experiencing a lot of the same requests that I was of clients who were looking for a therapist. And I saw this time slot on my schedule that wasn't being utilized. And I felt a need to kind of set the boundary for both myself so that I could support other people, but also for him, because I am saving this for him. And I am showing up for him in this way. And this is a way that he could show up for me. And so I figured this was a way that I could set a boundary for both myself for him. And for anyone else who's trying to receive services.
Kathryn Esquer 15:31
I think we, we can absolutely relate to that. And during that phase of the pandemic. My question actually backs it up a tiny bit before you set that boundary. What about this client really made you bend your already existing boundaries? Do you do that for other clients? Or was this client in particularly different? Because in the work we do, we do see a lot of trauma sometimes. So I'm questioning whether that's the unique aspect or not?
Ryan Coventry 16:06
That's a great question. My immediate reaction to that is that there was something about this person who I just felt for in such a pure way. Maybe it was his story. Maybe it was, you know, the way in which I just empathize with him so much. And I don't think I can really put a finger on it, except to just say, this is clearly someone who is in distress. And I felt called upon for whatever reason to be that person to help him.
Kathryn Esquer 16:48
Thank you for sharing that because I can I can absolutely relate to that indescribable pull. And as much as we try to identify the countertransference, sometimes you can't quite put your finger on it. Right. But you know, it's there. And so that's what we're acknowledging here. Right, that, that pull to help and, and consequently, be the justification, perhaps of bending some boundaries along the way.
Allie Joy 17:18
Yeah, Oh man, so up to this point, then, so you've shared with us you are working with this client, they had no showed or cancelled 18 times with additional 11, it sounds like right,? Like maybe within 24 hours, you had been working with them, you set this boundary that if they could attend three sessions per month, you would continue, but they did not meet that. So you decided to terminate, what happened next.
Ryan Coventry 17:45
So the piece actually, that is so important here is that we had to fast forward a month into that decision against termination, which was he had announced during one of his sessions that he was going to, quote unquote, take a break from therapy for that specific month. He believed that he was doing better after he finally accepted his need for some form of anxiolytic. Admittedly, I didn't agree that this was something that he needed at that time. And I voiced that, and said, I'm not sure that this is actually the best timing for you, I think if the anxiolytics are working, then let's take advantage of really lean into the benefits of talk therapy. But like any other client, I met them were they were at. And they said, if this is what you need, then I'll meet you there. And so we took the break off for a month. During that time, I admittedly got a lot of space from him, of course, right, you're not working with the client for a month. And it actually got me to feel what it was like during that hour to not be sitting with it. And it actually created a lot of space for me to be very reflective of what was coming up. Right, what was coming up about that time that I was coming with. And it created space for some of the other feelings that I was having about the fact that I was bending these boundaries that I was, you know, kind of agreeing to work with this person who was admittedly struggling. And who wasn't necessarily meeting me in a way that, you know, we would expect most clients to show up.
Kathryn Esquer 19:28
Or that you explicity agreed upon, this wasn't an implicit expectation. This was something that was addressed multiple times, right.
Ryan Coventry 19:37
Yeah. I appreciate that clarification. So, a week out from his scheduled next session, which was after that month hiatus, he messaged me to reschedule his session, and also inform me of his decision that he will now be meeting every other week.
Kathryn Esquer 20:00
So can I pause really quick. So what happened was, we bent the boundaries, allowed them to cancel more frequently then came back and said, alright hey, we gotta read, we revisit this, we have to show up three times each month, he blew that boundary out of the water. And you, you decided we will not terminate, correct. So you said we will not terminate. Then he says, okay, we're not terminating, but I'm gonna take a break. And then he comes back, and he says, okay, now we're going down to twice a month, once every other week.
Ryan Coventry 20:33
You understand it! It makes sense to you guys. Right?
Kathryn Esquer 20:37
Yeah. You are a better therapist than me, Ryan, tell us what you did with this.
Ryan Coventry 20:45
Are you sure? We might be about to find out that I might not be.
Kathryn Esquer 20:48
Yeah, tell us. How did you handle him after you got this space to think and reflect and recognize these boundaries that have been maybe microscopically been bent along the way? Because this, this deep compassion and empathy for him? What did you do when he came back and said, hey, we're going down, we are going down to once every other week.
Ryan Coventry 21:11
So I decided in that moment, that enough was enough. And that the relationship was, and that there was nothing that I could offer him that would actually be therapy. So I was grappling with the decision, do I email him? And tell him of this decision? Or do I say, okay, we will schedule and I will see you at this date, and then tell him in person. And I found that I was feeling way too many things in that moment. And I said, no, I can't communicate this to a client in person in the way that I really want it to be received. I have experienced his reactions to things, and I know that he is going to pull away and withdraw anyways. So why don't we give him the chance to allow him to respond to the situation in the way that he wants to, and he feels that it's safest for him. So why don't I take the time to draft an email that communicates my decision to close with him and terminate services and refer him to a different provider. And so I did that. I think I drafted it six different times. Because I wanted to make sure that any emotion I had was removed from the text of it, I wanted to make sure that it clearly communicated a message of hope, a message of empowerment, acknowledging the strengths and the therapeutic progress that he had made. And to just say, this is where things are at. And I would be happy to talk with you in person about this, if he would like to schedule a session.
Allie Joy 22:46
And had you sought any consultation around this yet? Or was this after the fact?
Ryan Coventry 22:52
Yes, I had sought consultation about this prior to, I consulted with my colleague who had worked with this client's partner, just to get a sense for like, hey, like, am I missing anything about this relationship? I consulted with another person whose opinion I trust implicitly, just to say, like, hey, I need to check myself, right? Like, is this something that I am doing that is, you know, not benefiting the client? Hell, I had processed this in my own therapy. Right? Like, I feel so guilty about this client, what is that about for me? Right? We went into all of the you know, familial trauma, generational trauma, everything that goes into that and says, okay, so maybe this is just the way in which you recognize that you can't be there for this person. And you have to be okay with that.
Kathryn Esquer 23:54
I have a question. When you are drafting that email, because I'm putting myself in your shoes, and I would be having a hell of a lot of emotions. What emotions were going through you that you were trying to not come across in this email?
Ryan Coventry 24:11
Why are you asking about those?
Allie Joy 24:13
That's a good question.
Kathryn Esquer 24:14
I don't know, we're therapists!
Ryan Coventry 24:15
Ugh, I'm so sorry. I thought we only dealt with the mind can I CBT this out. Anger, resentment, annoyance, guilt, right? Wanting to remove all of those out there.
Kathryn Esquer 24:35
Those are all of those are heavy, very, very heavy.
Ryan Coventry 24:39
All of those are heavy, and they were so present. And I was doing it. I think I, I think I had to wait an entire day before I finally send that email.
Kathryn Esquer 24:51
It's a good strategy.
Allie Joy 24:53
Well, it's good self awareness too, because we know we on the podcast talk about yes, we're therapists, but we're humans. Right and how do we balance that because it's really challenging to be a therapist and a human at the same time. But it sounds like with your self awareness, you really did those multiple drafts, you waited to send it, you removed yourself from that equation, your emotions, consultation, all of those things. So it sounds like with that self awareness, you know, you knew what you had to do how to handle it. So I guess the next big question is, how did the client respond?
Ryan Coventry 25:23
He exploded. He used my inbox as a vehicle to deliver his anger and distaste for me. I had so many emails from him. Things saying like, what a horrible, disgusting thing for you to do. I was told to go fuck myself multiple times. I was told how I had completely derailed any progress we had made. I was also accused of abandoning him when we hit a quote, unquote, tough moment.
Kathryn Esquer 26:12
The guilt that was already there.
Ryan Coventry 26:16
Yep.
Kathryn Esquer 26:18
Or not, I don't know.
Ryan Coventry 26:20
Oh, the guilt was there.
Kathryn Esquer 26:22
It was still there even after.
Ryan Coventry 26:24
Mhm
Kathryn Esquer 26:25
Wow.
Ryan Coventry 26:30
The thing that like just really hit me about this is that, like, I received these emails. And I really tried to find my inner confidence that I know that I am a therapist in this moment, I know that I made this decision for a reason and I have to stick to it. And he is allowed to be pissed, he is allowed to be angry, he is allowed to feel whatever feelings he's having. And so that was what I felt my responsibility was in any replies to him was to just validate that he was feeling what he was feeling, encouraged him to process them in a way that he needed to to tell him that he could still process that with me if he wanted a final session. And every single email reply I got back was even more angry than the last.
Allie Joy 27:26
How did that wrap up, did you reply to every email? Or? Like, how did that conclude? If it was just that kind of cycle of validating responses and anger? How did it conclude?
Ryan Coventry 27:39
So eventually, I just stopped responding. And I had said, I respect your decision. If you change your mind, I will gladly make time for you. And then he had actually used our practice, and I mean, that private practice at large policies on if they want to file a complaint against the provider. And used those to voice his complaint to the owner of our practice.
Kathryn Esquer 28:18
Wow, how was that received?
Ryan Coventry 28:22
The owner was, you know, very understanding of my experience here and asked about my decision making, why I chose to make the decisions that I made and receive the client's complaint with, you know, grace and compassion, as is expected, but just reinforced that, you know, you wouldn't be able to see any of the providers in our practice.
Kathryn Esquer 28:49
Wow, he was dismissed from the entire practice? Wow. When you offered to process it in one final termination session, what percentage of you was hoping he'd take you up on that?
Ryan Coventry 29:08
I don't even know. That's just something that I offer to every single client, because that's kind of how I was trained. You know, most people won't actually take you up on it, if they, if there's any of these circumstances that they decide that you know, they just want to end therapy for whatever reason. And so I just, you know, I still offer it, because I just know that that's best practice.
Kathryn Esquer 29:33
I guess, I wonder, because two years is a long time to be working with someone who you have this compassion for. And I think that we can all you know, relate to being ghosted by clients who we have long term relationships with and so, I normally would be hoping, crossing my fingers that we would be able to have that closure together. But in this particular scenario, when you are the target of so much anger and hurt that, I don't know if I would be hoping he would take me up on that. Right. I think I would have mixed feelings about offering that. Or even or even this obligation, but maybe hoping he doesn't? I don't know.
Ryan Coventry 30:15
I really don't know. I think truthfully, I was very open to whatever the experience would be. And I was incredibly caught off guard by the level of anger that came through.
Kathryn Esquer 30:30
How did you process that? I mean, that we, in the therapy room are, you know, blank slate or not we're targets for emotion, right? And relationships, and we use that information in our work with our clients. But in an email inbox, that is not where I am expecting to have to contain and validate hatred or anger or hurt on a persistent basis. How did you process it? How did you manage it? What were your feelings? Like? What'd you do, self care?
Ryan Coventry 31:08
Okay, first and foremost, if you are not getting these kinds of emails, then you have so much better boundaries than I do. Apparently I don't have those good boundaries, because I get this a little too much.
Kathryn Esquer 31:20
So funny story, I actually do not have a practice email. Clients can not email me. Oh, we can talk about that later.
Allie Joy 31:28
That's the workaround.
Ryan Coventry 31:30
That's it, guys, there's a solution. No more email.
Kathryn Esquer 31:33
Okay, now I have, I have a lot of different things that have to go into that being a workable solution. But no, I've never experienced that. So what did you do?
Ryan Coventry 31:45
I drank a bottle of wine. I listened to some Adele. I think I had some bonbons at some point. No, that's a lie. I was doing a lot of baking at the time. So I ate what I baked.
Kathryn Esquer 31:56
So self care, and you let yourself sit with it.
Ryan Coventry 32:00
I let myself sit with it. I went to my partner. And I told him, this really shitty thing just happened. And I can't tell you the details about it. But it really sucks. And I just need to just say this thing sucks. And you need to say, yeah, that sucks. I'm so sorry. You didn't deserve to hear that. And he looked at me and rolled his eyes as he does and said, do you really need me to say that as is? And I said, Yes. Damn it, say it like that.
Allie Joy 32:26
I do the same thing. I'm like, I just need you to literally say this thing to me, please. Thank you, proceed.
Ryan Coventry 32:33
Yeah, because at the same time too, this is when we were all working from our homes. And we didn't have our colleagues who we can go knock on their doors and say, I don't know what to do about this. Right. And so my partner was my office mate, my roommate, my husband, and also the person I was so annoyed at, because I had to take the trash out the last time.
Kathryn Esquer 32:56
We can get into a whole different story about boundaries around relationships during the pandemic. Yeah. But that was definitely bringing our work into our home, I think was an unexpected challenge that crept up on all of us. Suddenly, we're now you know, not having this divide or not having these, these this space in between our work and our home life and our loved ones. Yes, particularly in the mental health fields, but you went through it. So that's a really good context to keep in mind that you went through this in the middle of working from home and adjusting and not having that collegial support that you had in your private practice office space.
Allie Joy 33:35
I'm even wondering, I wonder if we will never know, but do you think it would have gone differently if you weren't working from home?
Ryan Coventry 33:45
That's a great question that I don't even have an answer to.
Allie Joy 33:48
Because I feel like through the pandemic and telehealth, some of the dynamics with clients did feel like, at least for me, and my practice, it felt like it shifted, even if cancellations and things like they shifted a bit too. So it's interesting like in you know, obviously, the pandemic influenced the boundary setting for you. So, again, we won't ever know but it's something to think about.
Ryan Coventry 34:09
You know, what, actually, I'm glad that you said that about cancellations because there is something that was unique about this client in particular. Initially, he didn't want to do telehealth. He said he didn't feel like it was the same, which many of us heard that from client after client, right. But then eventually, he said, I realized I need it more than I thought I did. And so if this is the only way that I can then okay, I'll do it. And so initially, I was like, great, like this is going to reduce cancellations, late cancellations from you completely. But in reality, all it did was that it just revealed and confirmed my suspicion that canceling not because you actually have these events that you know are getting in the way of you, this is you're avoiding the way that therapy makes you feel. So I think to that point, he probably would have canceled more times. And I would have, alright, let's not get too big here and crazy, but you know, maybe I would have canceled and terminated with him sooner.
Kathryn Esquer 35:14
Interesting.
Allie Joy 35:23
Well, I was gonna say like looking back on this, like we always say, you know, hindsight is 2020. How could you have prepared differently for this? Or how could you have handled it any differently? If you would.
Ryan Coventry 35:39
I think, if I'm being honest with myself and who I am, I think I need to acknowledge that countertransference, that if there is this person that I am feeling this way about that, I need to acknowledge that that means that I'm gonna feel drawn to bend my boundaries. And sticking with those boundaries, because they benefit not just me, but whoever that client is in front of me too. I also need to know that it's okay to make these decisions earlier. There was a plan I was talking about recently in consultation with one of my colleagues completely unrelated to this current one, and he brought up the concept of a soft breakup. And it's this idea of how do you start the conversation off with a client that maybe therapy isn't working for them? Or that it's not working with you? And I, that's been something I've been thinking about, and it's really timely, hey, look at this, we get to talk about this. Right? What would a soft breakup have looked like with this person?
Kathryn Esquer 36:59
Could this person have tolerated a soft breakup? I mean, that's just where my head goes.
Ryan Coventry 37:09
I would say no, no. There are some really strong personality structures that I was very aware of within this person. But only when I was the one that was doing the ending.
Kathryn Esquer 37:29
So you, you successfully navigated this, it is in your past, but you've learned from it. If you were to be in a consultation group, or have one of your colleagues come to you and describe, near about the same situation, they have a client who's resisting treatment, no showing a lot. Not following through on set of mutually agreed upon expectations. And now calling the shots, decreasing frequency when you believe it's counterindicated. What would you, what would you advise them to do? What would you you tell them?
Ryan Coventry 38:10
That's the beautiful thing. I would tell them to do everything differently than what I did. Right? I could operate everything differently. Everything differently, right? Like, no, this is your boundary, you are the therapist, you are the expert here, they need to listen to you. How dare this client tell you how your therapy practice works, right? No, that's not how I work though, right? I think at the end of it, right, like we can be so supportive of our fellow therapists in ways that we cannot be supportive of ourselves in the moment.
Kathryn Esquer 38:45
I think that is such a common theme across all of these episodes of Am I a Bad Therapist, is that our inner critic is so much harsher, so much harsher than those, or criticisms, of those around us or our peers or our colleagues.
Allie Joy 39:09
And I feel like it's just easier to say it to somebody else like, set those boundaries, be super rigid, this is your time. And then when it comes to yourself, you're like, oh, you know what, I don't want that. Yeah, I feel it. I'm so compassionate.
Ryan Coventry 39:23
But like, am I sure that this person is going to still like me and like, gonna let my stuff come up around like, this person doesn't like me or not? No, it's not gonna come up. Right? Yes, yes it will.
Kathryn Esquer 39:34
Absolutely. Well, Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. I'm glad that you are confident, you know, you're not a bad therapist, and that we're all just navigating these murky gray areas of being humans helping humans. And so thank you for sharing your story. I hope it helps everyone else out there.
Allie Joy 39:53
Yes, thank you so much.
Ryan Coventry 39:55
Thank you both for having me on here. It was a delight to get to share this story. Please have me back. I have tons more where that came from.
Allie Joy 40:02
Yes.
Kathryn Esquer 40:03
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Allie Joy 40:04
Of course and Ryan, if anyone wants to connect with you outside of the podcast, where can they find you?
Ryan Coventry 40:10
Well, they can find me on the internet. I am a private practice clinician, Wellman Psychology and Associates here in Chicago, Illinois, so they can look us up at wellmanpsychology.com otherwise they can find me on Instagram. Although I am not the most social media prominent therapist out there. They can connect with me @coventry_counseling. Just that!
Allie Joy 40:35
Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for being here with us today.
Ryan Coventry 40:39
Anytime, guys, thanks for having me.
